Dog Trainers

[CoffeeCanuck]

I would like to open up a discussion on dog training, and in particular, dog trainers. From the Shadow and Diesel discussion in the Kelowna forum, dog training and assessment has come up. How do you train your dogs? If using a dog trainer, what do you look for and do you research them, their credentials if they have them, or does it really matter if they have had formal training?

Brad Pattison, as most of us know, has (or had) a tv show on the slice network called...At The End of My Leash. Then he moved to Kelowna and did some episodes called...Puppy SOS. He's authored books, and has a training school that after 6 weeks, people become "Brad Pattison Certified Trainer Educators (BPCTEs)". He also has a column right here on Castanet. On paper he looks ok, but he's not, not by my standards anyhow. Here are a couple of links to check out.





Cesar Millan is not without controversy. Victoria Stillwell is highly respected and has a tv show on Animal Planet called...It's Me or the Dog. While she appears to be a great lady with a genuine love of dogs, she is a trainer that believes only in positive reinforcement and from what I understand, doesn't believe in 'corrections', but rather ignore the bad, reward the good type of thing.

So, lets chat about dog training and trainers.

ETA ~ fixed the links

[Bunnyhop]

I've been training for a couple of years now with a well-respected obedience instructor. I chose her because countless people I knew had trained with her and spoke very highly of her methods and skill level. I really like that all of her methods are based on proven principles of animal behavior. Patricia McConnell, Brenda Aloff, Dr. Sophia Yin, Stanley Coren, etc. She is a Certified Trainer, a CARO and CKC Rally Obedience judge, and I think she was recently registered with CDART.

I would not train with anyone that does not follow the proven principles of animal behavior, but that's just me. The “alpha” theory is no longer accepted as valid, even by wolf biologists, and it is important to me that my trainer be current on the theories and principles that will guide me to the successful training of my dogs.

I’m not a Brad Pattison fan at all. He may have had some success as a trainer, I just don’t agree with his methods. I would never let him near me or my dogs. Ever.

I think Cesar Milan has a gift, he has an innate ability to be a leader of dogs and for the most part, this is very entertaining. I’m not going to criticize him, even though I’m not really a fan, because I think he does so much good for dogs and people and I do respect him for that.

[Bunnyhop]

CoffeeCanuck, you had mentioned on the other thread about having trouble with a Sit/Stay. We were taught to only use the Sit or Down command and the dog must stay there until Released from the position. No Stay command, but if I am expecting my dog to stay put for any length of time, I use the Wait command too. To begin with, the dog is told to Sit, I also use a hand signal. Reward right away, (Good dog, treat, whatever you choose), and tell them Release with a sweeping hand movement. No Stay command is necessarily involved, (but I use Wait, just cuz I feel like it!) the dog is learning to hold the command until they are Released. Once they are solid with a Sit, Good Dog, Release, then hold the Release for 3 seconds, then 5 seconds, then longer and longer. Go back if you need to just before your dog breaks without being Released, and reinforce with a Good Dog, and another hand signal, but don't repeat the Sit word. If the dog moves, put them back in their original spot. Don't let them cheat.

Once the dog is solid with a couple minutes, walk out of sight for a few seconds, return to the dog and Reward, tell them they are a good boy/girl. But start with a short time frame and work up slowly.

I routinely put my dogs in a Sit or a Down, and tidy the kitchen or fold laundry, any chore that takes 10 minutes or so. They don't move. You will love, love, love, having your dogs in a solid Sit or Down Stay!

As for Recall - my male is still not reliable but he is getting better. Both my dogs are high prey drive so they just don't get to be off leash outside the yard. I'm 99% sure they would Recall for me, but am just too nervous to take the chance. I'd love to find a secure area that I could let them off leash to test them out.

[CoffeeCanuck]

I do believe in the pack leader philosophy, but I do not believe in harsh corrections. I'm not big on continually using treats to assist in training either. I think in some cases it's fine as a reward, but a lot of the positive reinforcement trainers overuse treats. I want my dogs to obey my commands because that is what they are supposed to do, not because they get something delicious to eat. My dogs reward is affection.

That's interesting your trainer doesn't use the stay command bunny. After thinking about it, it does make some sense. I do use the wait command and my pups are good with that, except when there is a trigger present. Recall has always been hit and miss. I was able to see an incredible recall happen right in front of me, and it amazes me to this day. There are a couple of akita's that live 2 blocks away, and when outside, they are on a tie out cable which is attached between two trees. Whenever we would walk past with the dogs, on the other side of the street, these two akita's would go crazy, lunging, snarling, barking. I will admit, they scared me. It got to the point that we would walk to a certain point, and if they were outside, we went down a different road. Well, one day, we were getting to that road we usually turn down, when I see the akita's loose and in the middle of the street. They instantly spotted us and started running towards us. As I picked up my pug and was envisioning a really bad encounter, I heard a shout and a whistle. A guy was on the sidewalk calling to his akita's. With just that one whistle and call, they immediately turned around and ran back to him. It was amazing to see, and boy was I thankful they were so well trained.

I love Stanley Coren. I used to watch his show when I worked nights. I also like Dr. Sophia Yen. I subscribe to her FB page and check out her training vids when she posts them. She's another treat trainer though.

I see all the mistakes I've made over the years with the dogs I've had. Year by year I get better, but one thing I know for a fact is if I get another high prey drive dog, I will enlist the help of a dog trainer. The skill I need to master is that of immediate recall, as well as teaching my dog not to bother with anyone or any other animal that we come upon. I know me, and I don't have the patience to take the extended time I see it often takes to re-train a bad behavior by some of these positive reinforcement trainers like Victoria Stillwell. My boxer has been my biggest challenge due to her very high prey drive, and becoming dog aggressive, which was completely my fault. She's an old lady now, and so we just cope with what she is. If, and that is a big if, I do get another dog with those issues, I will have to work with a trainer.

[Bunnyhop]

Most people forget that reward based training does not have to use treats, it can be anything that is high value to the dog. For most dogs though, food is a high value reward so it is the easiest to use. The thing with all reward based training is that it is for training only and as the dog learns (or becomes trained), the rewards are supposed to be used less and less. My trainer builds that concept into her classes. As you keep training, and reduce the use of rewards, the dog becomes more obedient without the expectation that there will be a reward for every single thing.

So don't overlook reward based training as a viable training method. If your dog's reward is affection, using affection when she obeys your command is reward based training. Whatever positive method works for you and your dog is great.

Corrections shouldn't be harsh. I never tug their collar as a correction. Through training, my dogs have learned that a simple "uh-uh" from me is a correction. A hard correction would be a loud "HEY".

Sounds like you are at a similar place with your dogs that I am with mine. Those high prey dogs are a challenge, that's for sure! Mine are solid in a Sit/Stay or Down/Stay, unless they see a deer or some other trigger go by. Same with Recall, they are 100% in our fenced yard even if they are watching a deer go by. Without that fence though, I'm not confident I could Recall them.

Interesting that you mention that you would like your dog to ignore everyone and everything else around you. My trainer is BIG on that and we are working towards it. I don't take my dogs to the dog park because I don't want them playing with other dogs. They have 1) me, 2) each other and 3) dogs belonging to friends/family that they can interact with. That's all they need. If we are out on walks, I don't let my dogs greet other dogs. We keep on walking and if another dog comes to say "hi" my dogs are expected to be polite but stay with me and not get into a play match. My female is bossy so she always wants to take charge of the new dog so she is a challenge but we haven't had her for long so she will get better I hope. I just wish people would stop letting their dogs run up to us. Its rude behavior by their dog and by them. They can see that my dogs are heeling on leash, that should tell them that we mean business and are not out for a social meander.

How many dogs do you have? I'd love to hear about each of them!

[CoffeeCanuck]

I have two dogs. An almost 11 yr old boxer and a 7 yr old pug. Both dogs came to me at 2 yrs of age, and both had issues. My pug actually had the worst issues and we've worked through them beautifully. He's a completely different dog now. Looking back, I was not fully prepared for owning a boxer. She and I have gone through a large learning curve together. She was not dog aggressive when I got her. She actually loved all dogs she met when we were out on our walks. When I began working nights, her socialization went down that tubes, and I admit to letting her down in that respect. Over all, she is a fabulous dog and I love her to bits, but I would do a lot differently. That's what it's all about though, learning and doing better when we know better.

My biggest wish for my boxer was to be able to take her for a long walk through this incredible park we have in the next Town over. It has nature trails, waterfalls and is quite large, but it's full of people and their dogs. We've gone a few times, but it just got to be too stressful meeting all of the dogs. I actually saw a show of Victoria Stillwell's where she dealt with a boxer much like mine. I even tried her technique, seen in this vid, but it just didn't work. My baby girl now has very painful hips, so I need to keep her calm, which means we no longer go where we know there will be all kinds of triggers for her.



What kind of dogs do you have bunny?

[Amarow121]

I wouldn't consider myself a dog expert, or a dog behaviour expert by any stretch of the imagination.
Having said that, I'm aware of my limitations as a dog owner, and what sort of dogs I will do well with (goofy subordinate dogs that are pushovers!)
I believe in using the tools that work with a dog, and I think the appropriate tools vary depending on the dog.
I have used a pinch collar, and I have found it to be incredibly helpful for short training sessions, mainly centered on not pulling on walks. I think it's a bit odd that a trainer would wholly dismiss it as an option. I have also used the Halti, which is think is a great training tool, but not always the best one for my dog (past and present dogs), as it can cause them to become distracted while walking. I've used a choke chain, which I didn't find very useful for any of my dogs.
I've had some dogs that need only a firm look and a raised finger, and they stop their bad behaviour.
I've had some dogs that need a shout, or some redirection/distraction, or a combination of both.
I've had a dog that required a full on physical correction to the point that you had to tackle him, put him on his back and clamp his muzzle for him to understand that I really meant no.

So while I have swatted the nose of a dog or two, I have only ever needed to do it after I've tried my other discipline/training techniques.
It seems a bit odd to me that Brad needs to swat noses in a training session. To me a swatting is after the dog has engaged in a behaviour, been caught, redirected, and then has disobeyed a command to re-engage in a behaviour, particularly one that is risky or dangerous for the dog or for people around him. For example, trying to lunge into traffic, or lunging after a cyclist or runner.

I suspect I will get into some hot water over the fact that I've swatted the nose of my dogs a few times, so I want to reiterate that this is not a normal part of my dog discipline, it is something I do only as a last resort, and it isn't done really at all except in exceptional situations. The dog we have now merely requires a raised eyebrow and a loud "Ah!", and he stops.

I haven't gone to any formal obedience sessions in a few years and not at all with the dog we have currently. I went to the trainer that my parents had always taken our dogs too, I had a great rapport with her and we had great results with her lessons.
Our current dog is easy going and has picked up on the most important commands and concepts without any formal training sessions so we continue to work with him at home by ourselves.

[CoffeeCanuck]

Thanks for the honesty Ammarow. I agree that different dogs need different levels of correction, basically dependent on their dominance and personality. My pug is very sensitive and submissive. My boxer, though sensitive, is dominant and strong willed. She is the first strong willed dominant dog I've owned, so if I ever do get another one like her, I'll be much better equipped to deal next time around.

I don't agree with using pain to train a dog. Whether that is a pinch collar, shock collar, hitting, and I'm really appalled that a trainer today hits dogs. Seriously, if that was my dog he hit, he would have received the same back. I know people have some issue with Cesar and the way he snaps a dog out of it's behavior by his hands on correction to their neck with his hand, and their back leg with his heel, but I'd rather have that than what Brad does. I don't like the alpha rolls Cesar does, and I'm still undecided with his flooding technique.

Does anyone have an particular training methods they have tried (without a pro trainer) and had success with?

[Bunnyhop]

Coffee, I have 2 Mexi-mutt rescues. We think the male might be a Pointer/JR Terrier mix, his age we guess at 4 - 6 years. The female looks like the male (hard to tell them apart unless you know them well), but she is much stockier and solid so I'm guessing breed is Pointer x some sort of bully breed. We think she is close to 2 years old. I've had the male for 2.5 years and the female we just got at the end of February.

Being former street dogs, they both missed out on the early socialization so necessary for puppies. They both get along very well with dogs they know, and actually share toys and food better than most dogs. Greetings have to be controlled and its really difficult when people let their dogs run up to us, even if they are friendly. My dogs immediately go on the defensive and its harder to manage them once that happens. If we can do a proper greeting, or just walk on by without a greeting, its way better. Dogs don't have to meet every person and every dog that crosses their path. I don't stop to chat with everyone I see, why would I think my dog should chat with every dog they see?

My trainer uses a similar method as Victoria Stillwell for desensitizing dogs to other dogs. I've used it with my own dogs and it works quite well, the problem is that we live in a rural area so we don't see other dogs on a consistent enough basis for it to be really effective. That's on me though, I should make more of an effort to take my dogs into town consistently to work on this.

I'm having a lot of fun with my dogs though. They are very well behaved at home, and have really good house manners. People tell us all the time how impressed they are with our dogs. I spend a lot of time with them, practicing and training basic obedience. The male also does Agility and Rally Obedience which helped immensely to build a bond between us. He's a bit of an independent dog so I had to invest more time in him than the average dog, I think. The female starts Rally Obedience in the fall and maybe will do Agility next summer. She is an enthusiastic but biddable dog so I think she'll do really well once I learn how to train her.

I've only done formal training with this instructor, and readily admit I would be lost without her, so can't comment on any other training style.

[CoffeeCanuck]

I love that you have 'second hand' pups...so yay for you.

I think other than training and giving a dog good manners, the most crucial thing to do is proper socialization which starts when they are puppies still with their mother and then continues for the rest of their lives. It can be difficult though, in some circumstances, and I do recognize that.

I'm glad you found a trainer that you have faith in and it has worked out well. Somewhere there is a thread for pet pics, you should post your pups pics bunny.

[CoffeeCanuck]

I couldn't agree more.

[Bunnyhop]

Boo, Hiss, to prong collars, choke collars and e-collars!

My male has to wear a martingale collar because his neck is as thick as his head and a flat collar would have to be choking tight for him to not be able to slip out of it. I keep the martingale set at the point just where it won't fit over his head if it tightens, but is slack and comfortable normally. I just got him a beautiful leather martingale. I have a separate leather sporting collar for him to wear when doing Agility, it has nothing protruding on it that could catch on tunnels or other obstacles. It has a flat ring that sits on the back of the dog's neck for clipping the leash to, which makes it easier than always having to reach under the dog's neck and fumbling for the D-ring.

My female wears a flat nylon collar, but when I can afford it I will buy her in a sporting collar to wear all the time. I like the sporting collar that much. Both the martingale and the sporting collars are from Red Dog Leather, a small company from Ontario. They are just starting out so don't have a website yet but they do have a Facebook page. Their products are pricey, but well worth the extra $$.

ETA: My dogs roughhouse a lot so I don't leave their collars on them at home or when they are out in the yard. Only if I am taking them out somewhere, or if we are doing yardwork and the gate will be opened often, I put their collars and tags on them just in case of escape. They probably wouldn't go far, but they are dogs, ya know?

[Amarow121]

I couldn't agree more.

Okay, I'm a bit confused.

When I've used a "choke collar", I've never actually used it to choke the dog. Typically this is a dog that heels well, but has a tendency to get distracted, or tries to weave around me or generally goof around. So not a dog that is straining or pulling or completely incapable of heeling. What I use it for is to make noise when the dog is doing something wrong. Sort of the same way I'll go "Ah!" if they are misbehaving. Dog misbehaves, I jiggle the leash enough for the collar to make noise, but not to choke!
The attraction for me with the choke chain is that it's easy to slip on and off, makes a god awful racket when I jingle in, and that my leash can be attached.... I don't think I've ever used one for a full walk, maybe for the first 1/4 or 1/2 of the walk to remind pooch what the rules of walking on the leash are.

Am I totally out to lunch with how I've used choke chains?
Are people really using choke chains to try to correct pulling?
Bizarre.

Having said all that, I haven't used a choke chain in 2 or 3 years, and it was a brief affair.


It seems like you'd have to be an utter moron to use a choke chain to the point of strangling your dog! I'm just amazed...

[CoffeeCanuck]

Are people really using choke chains to try to correct pulling?

Absolutely they are and do. I've seen it personally. Here is a good article on choke chains. http://ptfordogs.blogspot.ca/2009/02/sa ... hains.html

I've heard and read about all kinds of deaths that are the direct result of a dog wearing a choke chain. I'm really glad you no longer use it Amarrow, and even when you did, it was for a short time. I really do wish choke, prong, and shock collars would all be removed from the market and be illegal to use.

Personally, I'm kind of fascinated with clicker training, and when I get another dog that requires any kind of training, I'm going to give it a whirl.

[Libelle]

IMO you have to be consistent with what is allowed and what is not, you can not let a bad or incorrect behavior slide, as the dog will remember this. When I had Benny (Rottie who was a very big boy at180 pounds) he knew that I ran the show. When he would come in from outside I did not have to remind him not to leave the front door mat as we always without fail wipe his feet. After this was done he sat down on the mat and waited until I got his treat. His bum could not leave the mat or he did not get it. If I wanted him to go and lay down as I do not think dogs should wander when it is dinner time I could just point to his mat and say bed, and he went. After we were done eating then he got his meal. We always ate before him, as the pack leader or the higher ups always do. I never ever used pain as a way to correct him, I used my words and hands in a non violent way. He was very well behaved and I did not have to ask twice for him to do something or to come to me. He was my baby at the time, and I sure do miss him.