Vernon referendum

[pentona]

Careful now, our new rink in Penticton wasn't supposed to be "too" expensive either...

That's very true. Perhaps the Vernon Referendum should state $13-14 Million at most. We all know how these cost overrun projects go. Didn't Penticton's SOEC go just about double what they thought it would be?

[ToddT]

We did so well we get mentioned twice in here: https://cupe.ca/sites/cupe/files/p3_guide_eng_final.pdf
Note points 15 and 22. Cost overrun of $25 million and low income kids couldn't afford to play on the ice.

[cv23]

Careful now, our new rink in Penticton wasn't supposed to be "too" expensive either...

Name any major municipal government project that doesn't wind up costing way more than "original estimates"? Supposedly "skilled" City staff prepare totally unrealistic estimates and then sell Councils on approving totally under funded budgets. Actual construction costs going 25% over those approved budget amounts is considered by City staffs as "minor" cost over runs "that should be expected".
At least Vernon is asking the tax payers regarding a major expenditure, in Kelowna the way is to say yes to everything and if there is a peep from the citizens staff just play the AAP card. Kelowna approved a $38mil RCMP station without a referendum and you can bet the final bill the citizens will be forced to pay will exceed $50mil .

[puttrench]

Frankly, I'm on the side of the Farmer's Market. Why is no one mentioning this little quandry?

[ToddT]

Because frankly they are "small potatoes." See what I did there?

[bob vernon]

Watch the Castanet video.

http://www.castanet.net/edition/news-st ... htm#150846

The Penticton rink wasn't a rink. It was two sheets of ice. And one of them was built with way more seats than necessary at the time, and it will be years before the city will need that much capacity for most events. But good for them for planning ahead. Maybe by too much, but Penticton did plan ahead. And they got a big chunk of the $80 million or whatever from the province.

The Farmers' Market will have to move to another location. Temporarily. They are tenants, not owners of the parking lot. Either move or the battle over the horse racetrack will conclude and parking can be expanded to the west of the rink(s). What chance of revival does horse racing have? The base of this sport has long since vanished and now it is only a sport for the wealthy. And not here.

Either replace the Civic with a new rink or spend five or six million to keep it going for 5 years. And that much again to reach 10 years. That's a million a year in repairs. The math is simple.

[twobits]

That's likely what will happen, ToddT. Too bad we weren't advised that it COULD be repaired properly (as it now has been) before the Referendum. We were slightly misled, I would say. Slightly?

We were advised that it could be repaired properly. The problem was the dollars to do so made absolutely no sense at all. Hence the referendum WITH the understanding that Memorial Area would be torn down 3 yrs after the completion of the SOEC. That is my memory anyway.
Shortly after the completion of the SOEC some serious structural problems became evident in MA. Water was pouring thru the roof in numerous places to the point that the concourse was a series of puddles. Structural joints of the arch beams were also failing to the point where in 80k wind gusts, the roof was moving longitudinally up to 16 inches. This is what caused all the water leaks. All it was going to take for that building to collapse was a freak storm with winds in the 100 to 110 km range. And we do get them here. Some long timers here might remember about 15-20 years ago when about half of the big pines in Skaha Park came down in 100km winds.
It was when these serious structural flaws were realized and the very real possibility of MA actually being torn down that the discussion arose about it's "Memorial" status and "could it be torn down". There was a bit of lively community debate with some saying as a war memorial we were obligated to keep it and other more practical logic that it was absurd to think that the memorial should perpetuate an endless stream of tax dollars for generations to come to preserve a building whose best use had already long been past. The pragmatic argued that the more sensible solution was to tear the building down and build a more practical memorial in it's place that could be a "forever thing" like a Cenotaph.
The end result at the time was a decision to spend a few million and extend the life of MA for another ten years. Anchor supports for the arch beams were beefed up and cross structural webbing support was added in the tops of the spans. Bottom line is we have now already past the date for which those upgrades were meant to carry us and it now just a matter of time before we will face the same question again. More millions or tear down?

It has been a long time and that is my memory of events. I would welcome anyone to add to that or correct me.
Vernonites should also ask themselves if they are headed down the same path?

[XT225]

We were advised that it could be repaired properly. The problem was the dollars to do so made absolutely no sense at all. Hence the referendum WITH the understanding that Memorial Area would be torn down 3 yrs after the completion of the SOEC. That is my memory anyway.
Shortly after the completion of the SOEC some serious structural problems became evident in MA. Water was pouring thru the roof in numerous places to the point that the concourse was a series of puddles. Structural joints of the arch beams were also failing to the point where in 80k wind gusts, the roof was moving longitudinally up to 16 inches. This is what caused all the water leaks. All it was going to take for that building to collapse was a freak storm with winds in the 100 to 110 km range. And we do get them here. Some long timers here might remember about 15-20 years ago when about half of the big pines in Skaha Park came down in 100km winds.
It was when these serious structural flaws were realized and the very real possibility of MA actually being torn down that the discussion arose about it's "Memorial" status and "could it be torn down". There was a bit of lively community debate with some saying as a war memorial we were obligated to keep it and other more practical logic that it was absurd to think that the memorial should perpetuate an endless stream of tax dollars for generations to come to preserve a building whose best use had already long been past. The pragmatic argued that the more sensible solution was to tear the building down and build a more practical memorial in it's place that could be a "forever thing" like a Cenotaph.
The end result at the time was a decision to spend a few million and extend the life of MA for another ten years. Anchor supports for the arch beams were beefed up and cross structural webbing support was added in the tops of the spans. Bottom line is we have now already past the date for which those upgrades were meant to carry us and it now just a matter of time before we will face the same question again. More millions or tear down?

It has been a long time and that is my memory of events. I would welcome anyone to add to that or correct me.
Vernonites should also ask themselves if they are headed down the same path?

Thanks for the great info, Twobits. Appreciated. Perhaps the city could tear down Penticton Memorial Arena and THAT is where the Casino could go? (slight lol) Perfect spot for it; plenty of parking, highly visible, etc etc. Re Vernon, there Civic Arena is considerably older and may not have any real Memorial/Historical value. I would sure advise Vernon residents, however to get a written declaration that it WOULD be torn down, if they vote in favor of a new one. Don't make the same mistake as Penticton did.

[TheBoss]

The simple reason why i'll vote no is because kal tire place is already under used. Sure there is the odd event that happens their a few concerts, but the last big concert i remember being held their was alice cooper. Vernon could do more to hold concerts and events here. Once the twinning of kal tire if and when it does happen what will happen to the civic arena? Like another one of vernon heritage buildings will it get torn down and a parking lot put into it's place or condos? I also wonder where will events like the autocross will be able take place or the karts? Vernon lacks vision for it's town.

[bob vernon]

Concerts by major entertainers don't come to Vernon because promoters would lose their shirts. Big name acts are put into Kelowna, and if Vernon fans want to see the act, they'll go there. It's not far. Any act that will draw a Vernon sized crowd are put into the Performing Arts Centre.

Go ahead. Vote no and the city will spend more than $5 million over the next 5 years on repairs to the Civic arena. And then another $5 million over the following 5 years. With more to be spent after that. Those repairs don't need a money by-law vote to approve spending, it's just maintenance. In a decade we'll be complaining about spending all that money on an old building that's falling apart and we'll need to spend $15 to $20 million then for a replacement building.

[twobits]

Concerts by major entertainers don't come to Vernon because promoters would lose their shirts. Big name acts are put into Kelowna

Some but not many. Much to the chagrin of many Kelowna folks, the SOEC in Penticton is kicking butt in drawing the artists that people in the Valley want to see.

[bob vernon]

Whether it's driving down to Kelowna or to Penticton, the bottom line is that concert goers will drive elsewhere for a concert. Promoters just don't put major acts into Vernon.

[ToddT]

Some but not many. Much to the chagrin of many Kelowna folks, the SOEC in Penticton is kicking butt in drawing the artists that people in the Valley want to see.

Was kicking butt. What's with the lack of events in recent months and nothing upcoming? We were on a roll!

[Straight Shooter]

It wasn't that long ago that country music lovers in the Interior would have to travel to the SOEC to catch top name performers. But the Luke Bryan concert in Kelowna in May of 2014 changed all of that along with Jason Aldean and Shania Twain held at Prospera Place in Kelowna. Right now Kelowna is sitting in a much prettier situation in obtaining top performers no matter what style of music than it did a few years back.

[bob vernon]

Back to the referendum. Spend $13-$14 million now on a new rink. Or spend $10 million over the next 10 years on maintaining the rotting Civic. And there's no need to go to referendum to spend the $10 million on repairs and maintenance. It will just be added to your tax bill. In 10 years there will be another referendum for probably $20 million for the next version of a new sheet of ice.

Go down to Civic this weekend. The doors are open all weekend for minor hockey. Hold your nose near the washrooms, though. When they built the place in the 1930s, they ran some of the sewage pipes inside the concrete and those pipes have rusted out. Only the washrooms in the addition they tacked on in the 60s or 70s are usable.

Look at the walls and the poor onsite mix of concrete they made in the 1930s. Some of it is crumbling away. No redi-mix trucks back then. Check out the beams and trusswork that holds up the roof. There's a lot of cracked timber up there that needs replacing. If you really want to keep that rink, it'll cost.