Author, OKIB dispute book—Castanet, Vernon

[Pat-Taporter]

Hi techrtr ,

So it looks like you’re saying that the true criteria for a valid ethnography of a traditional culture would be one that was ‘recorded without influence’ during the age when people still had a ‘first-hand knowledge’ of that culture. And that might discount orally passing down tradition and then recording it . . ..

So, would the pictographs / petroglyphs that have been allegedly found around the lake fall into a true criteria?

http://www.exploringtheunexplained.com/ogopogo.htm

<snip>

Evidence of the Natives belief in Ogopogo can be found around the lake. Ancient pictographs or rock art depict the great " Lake Demon. " There are at least three crude drawings on stone around the shore of the lake. They are thought to be from around 1700 B.C. and are now in a extremely poor state of preservation.

<snip>

And

http://www.hancockhouse.com/products/pdfs/SeaOgoSC.pdf

<snip>

The evidence of an unusual animal observed by the Native culture can be seen in the many pictographs found in the rock face and on bluffs that border Okanagan Lake. Although interpretation may be deemed questionable, there is no doubting the resemblance to some form of aquatic species. One in particular shows an animal upright with a long neck, flippers, reptilian head with raised ears. Other pictographs in the Gellatly Bay area portray similar creatures, an obvious early artistic depiction of something other than fish, that were either observed or perhaps remembered from stories told to them by the elders.

Ogopogo, or Nha-a-itk, is a subject of controversy among tribal members. Much like in our culture, there are those who believe and others who stand firm and deny its very existence. The skeptic is deserving of the same respect as the believer.

<snip>

And

My favorite debate (so far).

Accessed from the UBC Library.

http://gw2jh3xr2c.search.serialssolutio ... 0Creatures

LAKE MONSTER MYSTERIES

Lake Monster Mysteries

Investigating the World's Most Elusive Creatures

Benjamin Radford

The University Press of Kentucky

Publication Year: 2006

7. Lake Okanagan

<snip>

If the N'ha-a-itk story is going to be used as supporting evidence for Ogopogo, one has to explain not only what the link is but also why all the other lakes throughout the world with similar traditions have supposed lake monsters that no one has found. (For a parallel example of native stories in the Bigfoot milieu, see anthropologist Wayne Suttles's discussion in Dave Daegling's Bigfoot Exposed)

Though most writers gloss over the tenuousness of the link between N'ha-a-itk stories and Ogopogo, others acknowledge it but claim that ancient Indian petroglyphs, or rock art, depict the lake monster.

Costello (1974, 220) writes, "The Indians have left crude drawings on stone of what is thought to be Naitaka, in which we can see the now familiar long neck, flippers, and even the two 'ears' on the crown of the head." Mackal (1980, 225) states, "There are at least three crude pictographs on rocks around the lake, now in an extremely poor state of preservation, which may be related to an alleged lake monster." Mackal quotes Moon's discussion of a drawing "showing a creature 'stealing' away through the weeds." Consulting the original source, I found that Mackal neglects to mention that Moon (1977) specifically states that this creature was "rodent-like" and therefore less of a fit for N'ha-a-itk than Mackal implies. Mackal suggests that "the relationship is tenuous and can be inferred only from the nature and location of the pictographs themselves." Yet the petroglyphs suggested as Ogopogo depictions are dubious for exactly these reasons. The petroglyph most often cited (figure 7.8) is not from the Okanagan Valley at all but from Sproat Lake on Vancouver Island (Kirk 2005).

Another writer, Karl Shuker, suggests that petroglyphs dating from around 1700 Be might be evidence for lake monsters. One particular drawing, Shuker (1995, In) writes, "is a strikingly accurate depiction of the vertically undulating, elongate water monsters frequently reported from the lakes and seas of Canada-so much so that it could easily be taken to be a sketch made by one of these beasts' twentieth century eyewitnesses." Yet the petroglyph he describes was found not on the shore of Lake Okanagan-nor even in British Columbia-but instead more than two thousand miles away near Peterborough, just outside of Toronto. It may represent a monster, but its location doesn't suggest Ogopogo. (The assumption that ancient artwork represents reality is what I refer to as the Bangles fallacy, after the 1980s band whose hit song "Walk Like an Egyptian" satirically assumed that real Egyptians walked as they were depicted on tomb walls.)

The criteria for inclusion seem to be so broad that nearly any ancient drawing found anywhere in North America that, to anyone's eyes, might resemble some creature that could live in water can be cited as evidence. Even desert-dwelling Indians (such as the Zuni and Pueblo) depicted horned serpents in their art and pottery. Writes Meurger, "The Zunis of New Mexico have represented their serpent god of underground waters and of torrents, Kolowisi, as a horned reptile with many fins and gaping jaws" (Meurger and Gagnon 1988, 165).

Thus there is little basis for the reputed links between ancient art and modern monsters. "There is no true academic evidence that specifically states that First Nations people ever put down in petroglyphs the shape of N'ha-a-itk," Ganassin (2005) notes. "The pictures didn't come with captions."

<snip>

So, could they be considered ethnography at all, or 'without captions,' be considered 'ethnography in a sense?'

[Pat-Taporter]

. . . That would have to have been written (or recorded in this case) when people still had first hand knowledge of the traditional ways of life e.g. during the 1800's. Let's say someone with an Edison Phonograph was able to record an Okanagan song in the 1870's. That would be far more representative of traditional culture than something someone wrote and recorded today (although the mere presence of someone with a recording device means outside influences have already changed the culture).

Pitlane Magazine

Ogopogo Lake Monster

http://www.pitlanemagazine.com/cultures ... nster.html

<snip>

The first recorded sighting of the Ogopogo by a European was in 1870 by Mrs. Allison. On that day, she claimed the sun was shining and a strong wind was blowing. As she watched from shore, she saw something that looked like a large log floating against the current. She estimated it was fifty feet long and three feet wide. She also thought it was no more than a mile from shore.

<snip>

Parks Canada

http://www.pc.gc.ca/apps/cp-nr/release_ ... &andor1=bg

Susan Louisa Moir Allison

<snip>

Susan Allison described her pioneer days as the happiest of her life, and she learned many Aboriginal domestic arts, a little medicine and the Chinook language. Adventurous and outgoing, she travelled the mountains on horseback, met disasters and adventures with calm and competence, and made friends with the Okanagan and Similkameen First Nations. A storyteller herself, she listened with great interest to the stories told to her by the chiefs and recorded them in English. She was the first European to report a sighting of the legendary Naitaka (Ogopogo), a large serpent-like monster reputed to live in Lake Okanagan.

<snip>

I imagine 'reputed' ties in with the First Nations stories, otherwise how would she have known to report that she'd seen Naitaka (Ogopogo)?

[techrtr]

First of all, there are no pictographs on or near Okanagan Lake that can even remotely be construed as depicting a sea monster. As for Mrs. Allison's sighting, there are natural phenomena in large lakes like Okanagan that can look like a humped animal moving through the water. People see strange things in the lake today - it's reasonable to assume that they saw strange things 130 years ago. There are reports that there are sturgeon in Okanagan Lake although that's never been proven (right up until the 60's they were still shown in government booklets about fresh water fish in the Okanagan). Large waves can appear out of nowhere because of air pressure differences (Google Seiche). I also personally have known people who created their own Ogopogo hoaxes over the years. Bottom line is, there are lots of things that can cause optical illusions to appear on a large lake. How did Mrs. Allison report her sighting? Did she tell someone "I saw something weird in the water this morning?" Did she write about it in a letter to someone? What did she call it - did she refer to it specifically as N'aitaka? You'd have to ask an ethnolinguist if that's even a traditional Interior Salish word or a modern creation.

I'm not discounting the validity of oral traditions, but since there is no reference to anything like Ogopogo in the earliest ethnographies, I think it's safe to assume he was not part of traditional Interior mythology. The Interior Salish believed in all sorts of spirits and supernatural beings - but apparently not a big sea serpent. If anyone would have been witnesses to something like that, it would be the First Nations people who lived along the lake before tourism and boats etc. arrived. If they'd seen anything that big and exciting, you'd assume that they'd tell the ethnographers, or the local priest, or the guys down at the trading post about it. Surely they'd at least weave legends about it.

Sometimes things like this need to be examined through objective, academic's eyes to separate the reality from the embellishments that have been tacked on over the years. Ogopogo is good for business, and it's in the best interests of some people to keep the myth alive.

[Pat-Taporter]

Hi, techrtr

Thanks for inspiring me to do some research and reading yesterday.

I particularly enjoyed discovering the third academic discussion that I posted earlier. It looks like it supports what you say about finding no Ogopogo pictographs around the lake. But the sentence that I bolded at the end still amuses me.

Then, concerning Mrs. Allison, I found it interesting that the 1870 date that you mentioned about ethnography seemd to coincide with the date she supposedly recorded her sighting; although as you reinforced above, I couldn’t find a direct source for the reference—even in the Parks Canada article (shame on them).

Also, as far as I can see, Ogopogo will always be a tricky ‘business’ for the unwary simply because it has the N'ha-a-itk - Naitaka spiritual aspect to it, which it seems has resulted in the OKIB being pitted against Ms. Hawes et al.

[Pat-Taporter]

It looks like the Chief has pointed out some similar resources for authors / artists and may be backing down a bit on this issue.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c ... -1.3606347

. . . Chief Louis said there are online guides to help people go through the process of consulting with First Nations, like the one on Simon Fraser University's website (links I posted earlier) and another available through the First Nations Education Steering Committee (http://www.fnesc.ca/resources/publications/).

<snip>

When asked how he responds to this book being a work of fiction, Chief Louis said the book adds to ongoing stereotypes about First Nations people and culture.

But he said that they do encourage writers trying to learn about their culture and history.

[Rosemary1]

Chief Louie said "the book adds to ongoing stereotypes about First Nations people and culture." Curious what he thinks of the series Blackstone on APTN with a full cast of aboriginal actors. Suspect that if it were aired by any mainstream station there would be riots and protests in the streets. It perpetuates the worst possible stereotypes of reserves.

[Pat-Taporter]

Or, along the theme of ‘young white people encounter aboriginal beliefs’ in a TV series, I wonder what he would think of this early effort at ‘cultural edutainment’ from a Canadian series that aired in the mid-sixties.

This episode features a spirit and a white character making a mask to ward it off.



Produced in 1965 by:
ASP Productions
Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC)
Incorporated Television Company (ITC)

It seems to me The Forest Rangers may have been the kick-off of a genre.

And now, as mentioned earlier, awareness of misappropriation of cultural heritage for commercial gain is the issue that the Chief wants to raise and bring under control, (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c ... -1.3606347 and
http://www.sfu.ca/ipinch/sites/default/ ... n_2016.pdf).

[Pat-Taporter]

Chief Louie said "the book adds to ongoing stereotypes about First Nations people and culture." Curious what he thinks of the series Blackstone on APTN with a full cast of aboriginal actors. Suspect that if it were aired by any mainstream station there would be riots and protests in the streets. It perpetuates the worst possible stereotypes of reserves.

So back to Blakstone.

Here’s another person’s opinion of the series.

APTN
Uploaded on Jan 18, 2012
Ultimate Fan Jody asks Georgina Lightning to explain how she feels Blackstone is different from the romantic Hollywood view of First Nations.

But here, a chief appears to support what you think, Rosemary1:

Winnipeg Free Press

FYI

Blackstone is a big step

By: Colleen Simard
Posted: 02/5/2011 1:00 AM

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinio ... 54819.html

. . .

And despite many warm reviews, Blackstone has gotten a bit of criticism.

Chief Terry Nelson of Roseau River First Nation emailed a scathing review to the media condemning the series.

"What will come out of the series will reinforce the stereotypes, the lazy drunken Indians, the easy women, the corrupt chiefs and councils etc.," writes Nelson. "Gordon Tootoosis' character says, 'The white people have the Mafia, we have chief and council.' The rednecks will cream themselves on that comment coming from a Cree elder."

There's some truth to Nelson's statement. These characters aren't candy-coated -- with a passing glance they could be seen as stereotypes. But sit down and watch the show for a while.

Many of the characters are dealing with serious problems, much like the problems we all deal with in real life.

This is dramatic fiction. That's what it's all about.

<snip>

[Rosemary1]

as far as I can tell disputes such as this can only be resolved legally within framework of either the Copyright Act or Patent Act.
Various intellectual studies and publications like the Fraser University publication speak to the subject of cultural appropriation but I'm not aware of other legislation that addresses cultural appropriation from a legal perspective when it does not meet copyright or patent act criteria as laid out in the legislation. Sure that someone will enlighten me if I'm mistaken.

http://www.laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/P-4/


http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-42/

[Rosemary1]

Ok lets talk about Blackstone. Very well acted and poignant series? Yes.

Yet its almost entire focus is on rampant corruption, abuse of every type, addiction etc. -reinforcing every worse stereotype that aboriginals are quick to accuse others of perpetuating under the banner of 'racism' .

Yet the aboriginal fans in video believe it's a great show because it shows the truth. Excuse me if I find this confusing.

[Symbonite]

Well the one thing I wonder is how theyard able to take something like Haynes point in osoyoos because they found artifacts that were from sorry swiwis provincial park anyways those artifacts found was from 1224 years ago and who's to know if that was native ppl and some other civilization with a different language

Anyways the article from where I pulled that number from

http://www.osoyoostimes.com/residents-f ... cial-park/

[Pat-Taporter]

The Province and the OIB made an agreement.

sẁiẁs Provincial Park (Haynes Point)

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/bcparks/explore/parkpgs/swiws/

During the course of a facility improvement project in 2014, BC Parks uncovered an important archaeological site within the campground. With sẁiẁs Park now an archaeological site, the Province and Osoyoos Indian Band (OIB) have agreed that sẁiẁs and sx̌ʷəx̌ʷnitkʷ Provincial Parks will be managed by the OIB. Park visitors can expect the same recreational opportunities as before. BC Parks and OIB continue to collaborate on management that will ensure the long term protection of the cultural heritage values in the park and the strengthen (sic) their government to government relationship.

<snip>

Audio Files: The nqilxʷcən/nsyilxcən place name for sw̓iw̓s park was recorded by Osoyoos Indian Band Elder Jane Stelkia and Westbank First Nation Elder and language teacher Delphine Armstrong. Jane’s nqilxʷcən skʷist (traditional name) is qʷʕayxnmitkʷ xʷəstalk̓iyaʔ. Delphine’s nqilxʷcən skʷist (traditional name) is ɬək̓əmxnalqs.
Click here for the audio file. http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/bcparks/explor ... soyoos.MP3

And maybe there was some scientific evidence that made a connection to the people of today (
http://anthropology.si.edu/writteninbone/ancestry.html).

Hence the interest in trying to find evidence of the significance of N'ha-a-itk in such things as rock art around the lake.