Another rail trail en route

Re: Another rail trail en route

Postby Dizzy1 » Apr 3rd, 2017, 11:52 am

spooker wrote:just looking at the Gran Fondo participation numbers should give you a hint of the number of people who will travel to have a great bike ride ... the Okanagan Shuswap Century Ride sells out in less than an hour every year and that route is completely on regular roadways but people ride 3.5km uphill through Salmon Arm to say they did it ...

The Gran Fondo is a special event catering to a small niche group of enthusiasts just as drag races are.
spooker wrote:And the idea that cycling here is only recreation is something that has been changing for the last decade ... while Kelowna isn't the greatest exampl, you can see larger cities where "riding as transportation" has gained a large foothold ...

Which, we won't see happening here for anytime soon - simply because of the terrain and poorly laid out design of our cities. Once that changes, and I'm sure one day it may, then we'll start seeing bicycles as more than just a recreation - but the first thing is our mentality and attitude has to change - and that will take a very long time.

Just for an example, when I lived in Europe, everyone I knew had a bike, and rode it to/from work, shopping, weekend beer tour on a regular basis. Here, for comparison, I could count the people who own a bike on both my hands and feet, those who regularly use them, I could count on one hand. In Europe, if you go to a grocery store or a place of work, you'll see almost just as many bicycles parked as cars. Here? Not even a fraction of a fraction.

Sorry, but building a trail ins't going to change the majority of peoples state of mind and lifestyle.
spooker wrote:Do you not think that the rail trail network has the potential to make this list?
http://www.theloop.ca/10-bike-trips-that-will-make-you-fall-in-love-with-canada/

For a small group of people who want to cycle on their holidays, but for the majority, they won't care.
spooker wrote:All you have to do is put in "canada cycling tourism" and Google returns 402,000 hits ... of course only a small fraction will be pertinent to this conversation but a small percentage is still a heck of a lot of resources ... some describe companies that have been proving supported cycling tours back to the 1970's ...

I could Google just about anything and come out with 402 000 hits.
spooker wrote:Call me a romantic on two-wheels ... but "build it and they will come"

There's nothing wrong with that.

Here's the problem why a trail like this won't appeal to the majority of tourists, there is no infrastructure to support it. If you compare cycling trails in Europe, they have several bike shops directly enroute, so you can buy the latest gear, get your bike fixed, etc. You can rent a bike and drop it off almost anywhere along enroute. There are pubs, restaurants, ice cream kiosks all along the route to cater the leisure cyclists that could make a trail like this something. Here, in comparison, they'll expect you to ride 30, 40, 50km in the middle of no where and then criss cross towns to find a bike shop or pub. The trail simply isn't designed for tourism other than for a very small percentage of cycling enthusiasts.
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Re: Another rail trail en route

Postby Dizzy1 » Apr 3rd, 2017, 12:00 pm

spooker wrote:
A) One could reasonably infer from the use of "suckers" that he has a negative opinion of the trail, though English is really vague with contemporary usage and the just reading the text over the internet leaves out tonal inflection and body language which would have supplied more information to interpret

B) Very true ... though you don't see me getting out here and complaining that my money is being used to widen Hwy 97 between Leathead and Sexsmith while I see plenty of people complaining about cycling infrastructure ... everyone has their opinions based on their knowledge and experience ...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposing it. Personally, I could care less if they build it or not. I would rather see them spend the money in bike infrastructure within city limits first as well as much stricter enforcement of the 2 wheel enthusiasts.
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Re: Another rail trail en route

Postby spooker » Apr 3rd, 2017, 8:15 pm

Dizzy1 wrote:Which, we won't see happening here for anytime soon - simply because of the terrain and poorly laid out design of our cities. Once that changes, and I'm sure one day it may, then we'll start seeing bicycles as more than just a recreation - but the first thing is our mentality and attitude has to change - and that will take a very long time.

Just for an example, when I lived in Europe, everyone I knew had a bike, and rode it to/from work, shopping, weekend beer tour on a regular basis. Here, for comparison, I could count the people who own a bike on both my hands and feet, those who regularly use them, I could count on one hand. In Europe, if you go to a grocery store or a place of work, you'll see almost just as many bicycles parked as cars. Here? Not even a fraction of a fraction.


I'm guessing that we live in completely different parts of the Okanagan Valley ...

Dizzy1 wrote:Here's the problem why a trail like this won't appeal to the majority of tourists, there is no infrastructure to support it. If you compare cycling trails in Europe, they have several bike shops directly enroute, so you can buy the latest gear, get your bike fixed, etc. You can rent a bike and drop it off almost anywhere along enroute. There are pubs, restaurants, ice cream kiosks all along the route to cater the leisure cyclists that could make a trail like this something. Here, in comparison, they'll expect you to ride 30, 40, 50km in the middle of no where and then criss cross towns to find a bike shop or pub. The trail simply isn't designed for tourism other than for a very small percentage of cycling enthusiasts.


I met a woman last week who lives in Lake Country and has about 400 feet of her property fronting the trail. She's working on finding a way to service the users. What that will be she doesn't know yet but in her retirement she's looking forward to finding a way to service those users. Lake Country has a bike shop, at the end of Kal Lake you've got Sun Country Cycle ... all of these will be ready to make themselves useful ...

Hwy 97 wasn't built with the strip malls and the airport on it, these businesses were built to take advantage of the highway and the traffic that it brings ... why expect that wouldn't happen for this trail?

Of course we'd love to see more safe urban cycling infrastructure ... but that's a whole magnitude more expensive and would just serve to piss off more people in cars who don't think there are enough cyclists out there to require taking any roadway away from the use of smog belching deadly metal bullets ... give more people a reason to cycle and lower the barriers to safer cycling then we can start redressing the woes we've made for ourselves with urban sprawl and the internet
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Re: Another rail trail en route

Postby Glacier » Apr 3rd, 2017, 10:21 pm

spooker wrote:
A) One could reasonably infer from the use of "suckers" that he has a negative opinion of the trail, though English is really vague with contemporary usage and the just reading the text over the internet leaves out tonal inflection and body language which would have supplied more information to interpret

B) Very true ... though you don't see me getting out here and complaining that my money is being used to widen Hwy 97 between Leathead and Sexsmith while I see plenty of people complaining about cycling infrastructure ... everyone has their opinions based on their knowledge and experience ...

Unbelieveable! The first words out of my mouth were "awesome deal," and you take that to mean I'm against rail trails? Give yer head a shake. The sucker part is about how the North Okanagan quietly negotiated, and reached a good settlement, while the Kelowna purchase was done with so much pomp and circumstance, that CN jacked the price up. So no, I'm NOT against rail trails at all. I'm MASSIVELY pro-trails. 100%. Capiche?

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Re: Another rail trail en route

Postby Dizzy1 » Apr 4th, 2017, 12:11 pm

spooker wrote:I'm guessing that we live in completely different parts of the Okanagan Valley ...

Your friend circle is obviously different then mine, you share the same interests as your friends as I do mine. However, I do challenge you to show me anywhere in the Okanagan, where you see, on a regular basis, an workplace or grocery store where you see just as many bikes as cars parked out front. Let me know and I'll drive down next time I'm in the Valley and look for myself how different your part of the Valley is.

And I don't mean bike shops, just to be clear ;)
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Re: Another rail trail en route

Postby spooker » Apr 4th, 2017, 2:39 pm

Dizzy1 wrote:
spooker wrote:I'm guessing that we live in completely different parts of the Okanagan Valley ...

Your friend circle is obviously different then mine, you share the same interests as your friends as I do mine. However, I do challenge you to show me anywhere in the Okanagan, where you see, on a regular basis, an workplace or grocery store where you see just as many bikes as cars parked out front. Let me know and I'll drive down next time I'm in the Valley and look for myself how different your part of the Valley is.

And I don't mean bike shops, just to be clear ;)


Darn ... I was going to say Kelowna Cycle on Pandosy since they have the tiniest parking lot beside them ...

Just on my block there are 6 other households that use bicycles regularly for more than just "fun" ... one mother put on some studded tires and rode to work even in the winter ... while the new IH building downtown has racks for 104 bikes, no they don't have that many cycling to work ... yet! <grin>

Three days a week I use the Ethel St ATC and see other regulars who aren't out there for recreation but are going to work or wherever ... the downtown Safeway has people lockup out front and go shopping ... go to Orchard Park Mall and check out the rack next to Timmy's and you'll see it regularly filled, most of the bikes are regulars as they belong to workers ...

You mentioned the terrain and layout being a barrier ... in Kelowna, unless you're up Dilworth, Magic Estates, or the Upper Mission the terrain is pretty damn near flat ... a coworker of mine even rides 3 times a week from Rutland to downtown ...

Yes, my circle of friends is weighted towards people that will try to stay healthy through regular cycling ... a small percentage are the spandex clad guys out for training on Sundays ... but the majority are parents just trying to make sure their offspring makes it long enough to move out of the house ... and yes, they've heard me blather on so much that sometimes they jump on a bike just to shut me up ...

You're a good rational one on here ... I do my best to be also, only saying things that I can back up through some shareable source ... if you look at the counter data the City provides (http://www.eco-public.com/ParcPublic/?id=4198) you can see the number of people who don't use a car ... just yesterday they counted 171 bikes along Ethel ...

A friend of mine from West Kelowna just went to Asia as cycle tourists ... that's the purpose with the Rail Trails in addition to enabling UBCO students to get out to campus safely ... sure, I'd have loved to see the price of that 50km stretch be a lot cheaper so money could have gone more quickly into the building process ... but I'd heard the numbers CN was putting out there before they convinced the governments to buy it and asking an MP who was visiting at the time about it just got me a non-answer ...

No, there isn't a location in the Valley that has an equal number of motorized/non-motorized vehicles ... heck, I'm just hoping that someday we can realistically hit double-digits in the cycling mode-share ... but it's certainly not as dire as you had painted with the previous post ...

I keep waiting for a non-cyclist to answer what are they going to do with all the newcomers to the city bringing their cars? So far I keep hearing "build more roads" and just shake my head at how unsustainable it is ...

(ok, that turned into a heck of a lot longer post than I meant, sorry)
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Re: Another rail trail en route

Postby 60-YEARS-in-Ktown » Apr 5th, 2017, 2:14 pm

Apparently there are many more people that want to see the scenery at under 30kph..rather than 70-120kph..
Than some folks on here realize....
I'd like to help You OUT,
Which way did You come in??

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Re: Another rail trail en route

Postby maryjane48 » Apr 7th, 2017, 10:39 am

LTD wrote:it will generate nothing people wont be coming specifically to ride a trail they will use it while on vacation that's that to say it will generate money is a crock of *bleep* it will cost money and I agree it should be funded by user pay, in this day and age where my taxes go up every year health care is a mess education is under funded and homelessness at an all time high stuff like this is a slap in the face .

so site c should be supporter pay . but thats not reality and anything to promote good health is money well spent
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Re: Another rail trail en route

Postby LTD » Apr 8th, 2017, 5:32 am

*removed*
Last edited by ferri on Apr 8th, 2017, 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Don't make it personal!
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Re: Another rail trail en route

Postby jasond_71 » Apr 9th, 2017, 8:35 am

I agree there are not many people who cycle to work. We have 2 out of 60 who do regularly. So 3% and my work probably has more than most. I don't see us equally Europe anytime soon in that department.
However recreationally the rail trails are money well spent. I don't care if I ever tourist uses them, they are great for locals.

I do think tourists will use them and it will add to our economy. They should use some of the hotel tax to maintain it so it will be free to locals.
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Re: Another rail trail en route

Postby aitaix » Apr 16th, 2017, 3:28 pm

LTD wrote:then you and the rest of the gran fondo people should pay for it through a user pay system

Maybe you're unaware of this so I thought I would clear something up for you.

People are paying for this. If you go to https://okanaganrailtrail.ca/donate you can find out that each 1 meter of trail costs $160. Currently there have been 3353 Individual donars to date. Little over a half million dollars and counting.

Have you ever walked, run, ridden biycle along the path? Try it sometime.

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Re: Another rail trail en route

Postby 60-YEARS-in-Ktown » Apr 23rd, 2017, 2:25 pm

Ingeneral people who dont ever cycle, dont know many that do...and dont understand where or why we want to ride.
My own brother for example actually believes..no one would travel here just to ride the trail. I think they will make it a day or two...part of their whole holiday....I think many in the near future will want to ride from the Border to Sicamous if it is possible..should be soon...and there is one in Oroville too.
People that dont ride dont really know much about bike useage.

There is places in town I see a lot of bikes.. Go to BNA pub in the evenings and see . Often see more bike customers than others at a brewery by the postal sorting station.
I have been on rides where we would get 20-50 folks weekly, there are many groups in town.
I worked at places where 25 percent employees would bike to work.

When Bernard got redone folks were complaining that it was not worth reducing car parking.. Back then on weekdays I would see over 40 bikes quite often parked between the Sails and Safeway and more on weekends. Bet the numbers are higher now than then. It certainly is not in decline and there is more, better places for cyclists, than we had before.
I'd like to help You OUT,
Which way did You come in??

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Re: Another rail trail en route

Postby Glacier » Nov 15th, 2017, 11:30 am

More good news. Pretty good price. https://www.castanet.net/edition/news-s ... htm#211618

This is 1/5th of what Kelowna, et al. paid. They were smart to avoid all the media hype that jacked up the Kelowna to Vernon price.
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Re: Another rail trail en route

Postby spooker » Nov 15th, 2017, 12:52 pm

Glacier wrote:More good news. Pretty good price. https://www.castanet.net/edition/news-s ... htm#211618

This is 1/5th of what Kelowna, et al. paid. They were smart to avoid all the media hype that jacked up the Kelowna to Vernon price.


Agreed, that is very good news ... if they can make a good connection between the two sections it might help put some pressure on figuring out a way to go south from Kelowna ...
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Re: Another rail trail en route

Postby GordonH » Nov 15th, 2017, 1:07 pm

Glacier wrote:More good news. Pretty good price. https://www.castanet.net/edition/news-s ... htm#211618

This is 1/5th of what Kelowna, et al. paid. They were smart to avoid all the media hype that jacked up the Kelowna to Vernon price.

spooker wrote:Agreed, that is very good news ... if they can make a good connection between the two sections it might help put some pressure on figuring out a way to go south from Kelowna ...


Since the rail is still in operation between Armstrong out to the Mill in Lumby. From were rail trail near Kal beach to just north of Armstrong is roughly 29Km's. I can only imagine the price tag to buy the land between those 2 points.

I suspect it would be easier to connect southern end of rail trail to KVR then connecting this section
(head up Gordon Dr make your way onto Chute lake Rd & Naramata then Penticton via KVR)
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