City picks up prime land

City picks up prime land

Postby twobits » Oct 6th, 2015, 9:13 pm

http://www.castanet.net/news/Penticton/ ... prime-land

Hey Mayor Jak.......what's this acre and a half for? Piece of land that won't require a referendum for a new Hotel Casino project.

Prystay pee'd in Council's Cornflakes too many times? As much as I don't care for the guy, his dad is way smarter than all of council combined. I would be shocked if dad rolled over and let the City hijack the Casino. I see interesting developments ahead.
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Re: City picks up prime land

Postby XT225 » Oct 6th, 2015, 9:28 pm

twobits wrote:http://www.castanet.net/news/Penticton/149177/City-picks-up-prime-land

Hey Mayor Jak.......what's this acre and a half for? Piece of land that won't require a referendum for a new Hotel Casino project.

Prystay pee'd in Council's Cornflakes too many times? As much as I don't care for the guy, his dad is way smarter than all of council combined. I would be shocked if dad rolled over and let the City hijack the Casino. I see interesting developments ahead.


If that were to happen, as in bold above, the public would scream blue you know what. We can't be buying land with public tax dollars and then leasing it to a prospective builder; that would be an unfair advantange and a huge subsidization. It could be a move to try to appease those upset over the possible loss of land in Skaha Park. Don't expect a lot of transparency though on this purchase as our present council isn't too familiar with that word yet.
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Re: City picks up prime land

Postby madmudder » Oct 7th, 2015, 6:06 am

More underhanded *bleep* from the magnificent seven. Doesn't make a bit of difference what they do they have to hold a referendum to take the ball field.
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Re: City picks up prime land

Postby mrmagoo » Oct 7th, 2015, 8:25 am

XT225 wrote:We can't be buying land with public tax dollars and then leasing it to a prospective builder; that would be an unfair advantange and a huge subsidization.


Why exactly? The City would have paid fair market for this and you'll be able to check this in the financial statements of the City and on BC Assessment's website next year.

All municipalities lease lands that I'm aware of. All have policies that require leases to be at fair market value.

Where is the "unfair advantage" and "huge subsidization"? I don't see it. I also don't see that the City plans to lease these lands currently but looks at them as of benefit to the public overall.
Last edited by ferri on Oct 7th, 2015, 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: City picks up prime land

Postby ToddT » Oct 7th, 2015, 8:26 am

I disagree with the sentiment here. The location of the land, coupled with its lack of use makes perfect sense for the city to pick it up. My only question is why not sooner, so it didn't sit empty for so long. You know what might work there? Waterslides lol.

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Re: City picks up prime land

Postby mrmagoo » Oct 7th, 2015, 8:38 am

madmudder wrote:More underhanded *bleep* from the magnificent seven. Doesn't make a bit of difference what they do they have to hold a referendum to take the ball field.


It is amazing that you just know underhanded *bleep* when you see it. What facts support this statement?
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Re: City picks up prime land

Postby jamapple » Oct 7th, 2015, 9:15 am

ToddT wrote:I disagree with the sentiment here. The location of the land, coupled with its lack of use makes perfect sense for the city to pick it up. My only question is why not sooner, so it didn't sit empty for so long. You know what might work there? Waterslides lol.


I agree. I said it on the CN story. Put the waterslide there. The OHS and OHA Academy would love it. Way better location than on prime parkland.
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Re: City picks up prime land

Postby XT225 » Oct 7th, 2015, 10:30 am

mrmagoo wrote:
Why exactly? The City would have paid fair market for this and you'll be able to check this in the financial statements of the City and on BC Assessment's website next year.

All municipalities lease lands that I'm aware of. All have policies that require leases to be at fair market value.

Where is the "unfair advantage" and "huge subsidization"? I don't see it. I also don't see that the City plans to lease these lands currently but looks at them as of benefit to the public overall.


Yes the city paid fair market value for it most likely. However IF (that's not certain) there is a plan in place to lease it out for a future hotel, then that gives that hotelier an advantage over any other existing ones or someone who planned to buy nearby land and develop one. The lease is what the advantage is. In this case, however, since the land isn't that large, its unlikely that a hotel could be developed there (unless they went TALL). Perhaps the Lakeside Hotel would like to sell their land back to the city and lease it from them? Definitely would be cheaper. That's my point. Lets hope that the city just keeps the land for park space or parking.

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Re: City picks up prime land

Postby mrmagoo » Oct 7th, 2015, 10:45 am

Actually land leases are not cheaper over time where a project is long term (like a hotel) and requires a lot of capital invested to build (like a hotel). Where are you getting your information from?

Leasing land requires a monthly payment. Purchasing land requires a monthly mortgage payment. Over time the mortgage declines and is discharged. Over time a lease payment does not decline and when it is discharged you have no rights to the land unless you have a right to request a renewal which generally resets payments at market at that time in the future.

It depends on your timeframe for ROI, but longer term you are much better to buy and develop imo.

The Lakeside, if they own their land, would be foolish to sell it back to the City and lease back unless they were cash strapped and without credit. At the end of the lease they would be at the mercy of the City for a renewal unless a right is granted to them to renew. Most rights of renewals are time-limited - ie. only for 20 years and then the owner may have you over a barrel as they can refuse to renew if they want to do something else with THEIR (not your) lands.

The difference between leasing and buying is really in your access to credit. You'll need more credit to buy than to lease most times. As you pay down your land you have access to more credit if you own. The opposite plays out with leasing.

I see no "unfair advantage". The only advantage I see in this scenario is that the Lakeside already has a facility in place. Those cost money to build. It is only if they are attempting to charge significantly above market for the space, or the space is somehow unsuitable or inferior now, that the advantage disappears.
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Re: City picks up prime land

Postby Madhue » Oct 7th, 2015, 8:13 pm

Why elect a council? Seriously, seems like people would like to micromanage this city... Maybe we should have had a referendum on this otherwise a ton of blue haired folks will come out in bus loads and link arms around the property... Silly rabbits this is why Pentictons growth is so slow.
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Re: City picks up prime land

Postby JBX » Oct 8th, 2015, 7:24 am

Hahahahahahahahha. Oh god my sides have entered orbit. The second the city does anything it's time to scream bloody murder and conspiracy. Wow just wow.
"The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it." -George Orwell

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Re: City picks up prime land

Postby jamapple » Oct 8th, 2015, 8:30 am

Madhue wrote:Why elect a council? Seriously, seems like people would like to micromanage this city... Maybe we should have had a referendum on this otherwise a ton of blue haired folks will come out in bus loads and link arms around the property... Silly rabbits this is why Pentictons growth is so slow.


You elect a council to do the right thing for the betterment of the community as a whole. If your answer is to just vote them in because they promised you rainbows and unicorn, and they turned around and never delivered, you'd be choked too, no? Just askin', as it sounds to me you have the attitude of just vote them in, and shut up and let them do whatever they want for a term. Doesn't work that way. But nice try though!
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Re: City picks up prime land

Postby mrmagoo » Oct 8th, 2015, 9:19 am

What haven't they delivered on? I follow certain issues but may have missed others.

As far as voting them in and shutting up. Your real power in this situation is who you choose to vote for and in decisions in which a referendum or community consultation is required.

The court of public opinion can influence politicians to some extent, but I would argue that if they are following the rules and a strategic plan and the advice of staff and legal counsel then they aren't doing their job if they bow down to vocal naysayers.

The truth of the matter is there is no consensus among taxpayers, there is a majority view that gets expressed through the election process. If you are not in the majority you can voice your opinion, but we don't elect Council to respond to public opinion that is often uninformed.

If Council does veer away from what the majority agree to, or there is some error in what they are doing, there will be backlash but don't mistake the loudest voices in the room for the expression of what the majority support. What Council can do better perhaps is communicate with taxpayers - not sure about that.
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Re: City picks up prime land

Postby Madhue » Oct 8th, 2015, 11:03 am

jamapple wrote:You elect a council to do the right thing for the betterment of the community as a whole.
Now this is a rainbow and fairy-dust comment... nope I don't vote for a politician for those reasons... why? Cause I'm a little more realistic than that. Now if the City Council makes some moves that prove value... even if we don't see their vision at the beginning, great re-elect them... if they flop .. vote them out. But here's the deal, progress hurts at first, we a city gets its chubby butt off the couch and starts to exercise its gonna be uncomfortable. All those lethargic muscles are gonna start to complain... and they are, we just have to work through that to grow stronger.

Penticton has had decades of slow moving do nothing politicians, afraid to strengthen this community because the q-tip NIMBY group will cluster and make noise. I for one am glad to see some movement... let the groaners groan. time to build this City. Time to grow and move forward.
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Re: City picks up prime land

Postby jamapple » Oct 8th, 2015, 8:02 pm

Could a venture such as this be built on a parcel of land in other parts of the city? Or would it only be feasible in that location? Very simple question. If it can be successful anywhere else, all of us against it being built in the park would embrace it. By the sounds of your comments, it HAS to be built there, or it can't be called building a city, and is backwards, grey haired thinking. So, Madhue.....simple question again....would it still be considered building Penticton if this plan was put on another piece of land, other than the proposed site?
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