School closures - where is public debate?

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Rosemary1
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School closures - where is public debate?

Post by Rosemary1 »

In two days a 'final decision' will be made.

The impact on elementary school children can be huge. Where are the questions and concerns from parents, media?. Its just not enough to say enrollment is down so we will close some . Very little pubic debate on this issue or media coverage

kids are most precious resource and so is their education. For a few dollars wasted in so many other things we are barreling ahead with what seems like little information. For example

-How much bigger will the classrooms be compared to what they would be if schools closure didn't happen (the younger the kids and smaller the class the better the learning experience-
- Will there be door to door bus service. Will some kids have to leave earlier for school and return home later depending on where they first or last to be picked up/dropped off
- Will new schools have appropriate and separate play areas for elementary school age
-will there be before/after school care programs in the school or close to the school

Lots of questions and information needs to be provided to parents.
pentona
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by pentona »

Try March 9th. The date was changed.
Osoyoos_Familyof4
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by Osoyoos_Familyof4 »

I think it's unfortunate that the school districts are forced to make such difficult decisions. It's not easy, and some people no matter what will be disappointed. I really can't even imagine where the school districts can find the money. Everyone is stretched to the maximum and it seems the only option is to close some schools.

I think the real debate should be at the feet of the Liberal Government of British Columbia who have painted the school districts into the corner. I think they have let education deteriorate in this Province. I think the years have been too lean, too long.
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Rosemary1
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by Rosemary1 »

Thanks pentona for date change update to march 9 date. Guess news hadn't caught up with that yet. When we look at dollars spent (wasted) by province elsewhere, school closures seem to be low on public radar which is surprising.
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by twobits »

Osoyoos_Familyof4 wrote:

I think the real debate should be at the feet of the Liberal Government of British Columbia who have painted the school districts into the corner. I think they have let education deteriorate in this Province. I think the years have been too lean, too long.


The province supply's funding on a per student basis. It only makes sense to provide the infrastructure required to accommodate that student load. Any infrastructure above and beyond that capacity is just a waste of operational costs from the total budget that could get directed to the classrooms if it was not paying for heat, light, maintenance etc. The BCTF opposes this because they realize there are efficiencies to be gained in the number of teaching positions as well. Two 8 or 10 student classes combined to one. Instead of looking at it as an under funding by the taxpayer, we should look at it as an inefficient use of funds by the School Board in continuing to operate schools at 1/2 capacity. To date the School boards have be focused on cost cutting thru delayed textbook replacement, library resources, computer upgrades, science lab equipment yada yada. Would it not be better for the students to have those direct resources for their education in one building rather than be without in two buildings?
If you owned the only two hotels in a town that were only running at 50% capacity and reliable forecasts predicted those numbers to actually continue to decrease for the next ten years, would you continue to staff and operate both hotels or would you shudder one to stop the bleeding of operational costs and fill the remaining hotel to it's capacity?
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by fluffy »

"Where is public debate?"

It's not hard to predict what the nature of those debates would be, everybody would have a case for why their school should stay open. This is a logistical decision, best facilities, least number of students displaced, busing costs, etc., etc., and the school boards are best equipped to make those decisions. Not to belittle the voices of parents, but they have little to offer in public debate that couldn't be covered in a letter to their respective school boards.
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by Osoyoos_Familyof4 »

There are almost no classrooms that have "8-10" students in them, not any in either the Penticton or South Okanagan district anyway (which pertains to our regions for the sake of argument).

The issue which could be argued is the schools who have empty classrooms, that are not staffed with teachers.

Any facility closure in these two districts would not have an effect on classroom teachings positions at all. The same number of teachers we have on staff now, is likely to be the same number after the reorganization of schools.

And just to clear things up for those who think teaching staff "make too much" (I haven't seen it so much in this particular thread, but I have in some others. I always like to clear any untruths up about this). Please remember that a few teachers with 25-30 years in the district will completely up the averages. My statistics are the average of the average, not the curve.

A teacher in their 10-15 year of teaching (with a continuing contract) makes on average $65,000 a year. This is for someone who has on average 5-7 years University (and without a Masters).

It takes on average 5 years of substitute teaching to get a contract.

The work week is a MINIMUM of 40 hours despite school being in session 6.5 hours a day. Extra-curricular coaching of teams, or running any of the other "clubs" is un-paid and voluntary (but you are often nudged to do them).

Lunch is often in the classroom helping out students requiring extra help, as is the 2:30-3:30 slot. Then you generally have at least 2 hours of marking and prep after that either at the school or at home.

Summer vacation is 7 weeks (not 8) and that doesn't include the week you will go in on your own time to prepare your classroom for the fall. So really it's closer to 6 weeks. Is it generous? Yes, but it is about 2 weeks less than many people assume. You are required to be back in the school the last week of August for professional development. And a week before that is when you start to see the parking lot get busier with teachers going in to make plans for September and to assemble the classroom. Report cards take on average 25 hours extra hours of work somewhere in your report card month per term.

On Spring break, and most long weekends, at least 1 of the "days off" (or more) will be spent in the classroom playing catch up.

The "rich" benefit package that some assume; looks about the same as almost anyone else that has workplace benefits. That means 80% coverage for most major dental and prescription drug costs. The dentist is 2x a year (like everyone else). Orthodontics are about $2000.00 per person (over a lifetime, so of course it doesn't cover it all). There is no coverage for psychological services other than the $500.00 per year (so about 3-4 appointments worth) that is covered under the employee family assistance plan. The only benefit I could guess might be considered extravagant is the benefit for massage. However the massage benefit isn't a blanket reserve amount that the districts pay per employee. It's cost is based on the amounts the employees will actually use the service (which is less than 10%). So although it appears as very robust, it doesn't cost the district as much as you would think. Basically what I'm saying is that the teacher's benefit package is pretty much the standard package that many of us have. My daughter had dental issues last year and we paid out of pocket over $1500.00 for her work over and above what the benefit package paid (and it wasn't anything too extreme anyway, it was mostly because she needed a pediatric dentist because she needed to be sedated).

Do teachers have it bad? No, they don't. But they don't have it as rich as people like to say either. Am I complaining? No, I'm not. But it really does irk me when I see comments (again not on this particular thread) about what fat-cats the teachers are. Considering the on-average level of education, they are paid 20-30% less than people with similar levels of education (but the hours are better, which is why I'm not complaining). But it's not some bloated organization either. Teachers pay for materials every year out of their own pocket (on average $100-300.00). If you are a teacher who teaches art/music, there is a good chance you will pay even more than that because that is an area where materials-funding is notoriously not enough).

Now back to the topic of busing children should facilities close: A trip 20-30 minutes away in terms of driving distance will for many children means 45min-1 hour on the bus (each way) once you factor in all the stops needed for pick up and drop off. The increase in busing cost is significant, as is the cost for upgrades to a school who is now taking in 30% more children. What do working parents do if their child is a half-hour away from the community and they're sick and need to be picked up? What about extra-curricular activities where busing then requires you to figure out how to get them to and fro? Basically the saving to the school district is minimal considering the impact on the school culture, family culture, and the impact on the smaller towns. The local _______ store or restaurant that services the school-based lunch crowd or the after school rush? There are financial impacts to all is what I'm saying.

The school boar budget is tight folks. It's tight because this provincial government doesn't see the value in education. It really isn't a bloated system. There is some reasonable-debate in regards to administration-heavy (I will admit that). But I'm not talking teachers/principals, or vice-principals. I'm talking district staff, paid very well, assuming duplicate services across arbitrary boundaries.
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by twobits »

Osoyoos_Familyof4 wrote:There are almost no classrooms that have "8-10" students in them, not any in either the Penticton or South Okanagan district anyway (which pertains to our regions for the sake of argument).

The issue which could be argued is the schools who have empty classrooms, that are not staffed with teachers.

Any facility closure in these two districts would not have an effect on classroom teachings positions at all. The same number of teachers we have on staff now, is likely to be the same number after the reorganization of schools.

And just to clear things up for those who think teaching staff "make too much" (I haven't seen it so much in this particular thread, but I have in some others. I always like to clear any untruths up about this). Please remember that a few teachers with 25-30 years in the district will completely up the averages. My statistics are the average of the average, not the curve.

A teacher in their 10-15 year of teaching (with a continuing contract) makes on average $65,000 a year. This is for someone who has on average 5-7 years University (and without a Masters).

It takes on average 5 years of substitute teaching to get a contract.

The work week is a MINIMUM of 40 hours despite school being in session 6.5 hours a day. Extra-curricular coaching of teams, or running any of the other "clubs" is un-paid and voluntary (but you are often nudged to do them).

Lunch is often in the classroom helping out students requiring extra help, as is the 2:30-3:30 slot. Then you generally have at least 2 hours of marking and prep after that either at the school or at home.

Summer vacation is 7 weeks (not 8) and that doesn't include the week you will go in on your own time to prepare your classroom for the fall. So really it's closer to 6 weeks. Is it generous? Yes, but it is about 2 weeks less than many people assume. You are required to be back in the school the last week of August for professional development. And a week before that is when you start to see the parking lot get busier with teachers going in to make plans for September and to assemble the classroom. Report cards take on average 25 hours extra hours of work somewhere in your report card month per term.

On Spring break, and most long weekends, at least 1 of the "days off" (or more) will be spent in the classroom playing catch up.

The "rich" benefit package that some assume; looks about the same as almost anyone else that has workplace benefits. That means 80% coverage for most major dental and prescription drug costs. The dentist is 2x a year (like everyone else). Orthodontics are about $2000.00 per person (over a lifetime, so of course it doesn't cover it all). There is no coverage for psychological services other than the $500.00 per year (so about 3-4 appointments worth) that is covered under the employee family assistance plan. The only benefit I could guess might be considered extravagant is the benefit for massage. However the massage benefit isn't a blanket reserve amount that the districts pay per employee. It's cost is based on the amounts the employees will actually use the service (which is less than 10%). So although it appears as very robust, it doesn't cost the district as much as you would think. Basically what I'm saying is that the teacher's benefit package is pretty much the standard package that many of us have. My daughter had dental issues last year and we paid out of pocket over $1500.00 for her work over and above what the benefit package paid (and it wasn't anything too extreme anyway, it was mostly because she needed a pediatric dentist because she needed to be sedated).

Do teachers have it bad? No, they don't. But they don't have it as rich as people like to say either. Am I complaining? No, I'm not. But it really does irk me when I see comments (again not on this particular thread) about what fat-cats the teachers are. Considering the on-average level of education, they are paid 20-30% less than people with similar levels of education (but the hours are better, which is why I'm not complaining). But it's not some bloated organization either. Teachers pay for materials every year out of their own pocket (on average $100-300.00). If you are a teacher who teaches art/music, there is a good chance you will pay even more than that because that is an area where materials-funding is notoriously not enough).

Now back to the topic of busing children should facilities close: A trip 20-30 minutes away in terms of driving distance will for many children means 45min-1 hour on the bus (each way) once you factor in all the stops needed for pick up and drop off. The increase in busing cost is significant, as is the cost for upgrades to a school who is now taking in 30% more children. What do working parents do if their child is a half-hour away from the community and they're sick and need to be picked up? What about extra-curricular activities where busing then requires you to figure out how to get them to and fro? Basically the saving to the school district is minimal considering the impact on the school culture, family culture, and the impact on the smaller towns. The local _______ store or restaurant that services the school-based lunch crowd or the after school rush? There are financial impacts to all is what I'm saying.

The school boar budget is tight folks. It's tight because this provincial government doesn't see the value in education. It really isn't a bloated system. There is some reasonable-debate in regards to administration-heavy (I will admit that). But I'm not talking teachers/principals, or vice-principals. I'm talking district staff, paid very well, assuming duplicate services across arbitrary boundaries.


With all due respect, and I do mean that because you are a kind and respectful poster far better than I, but you have to realize that I and some others also recognize your posts as being rather biased since your husband, and sole bread winner by your admission, is a school teacher. I completely understand your defense and position and why. Unfortunately I do not agree with your take. Quite frankly, your entire post is just a regurgitation of BCTF propaganda you have accepted as gospel.

I could go on as to why it is not but won't. Just query me this. If the BC Education system is so chitty, why were BC students recently ranked 2nd in the country in Canadian history at 80%. First place being 81%. And why is it that in Alberta, where the teachers make 10 to 20 % more, and the BCTF holds as the bar to meet for effective and quality education......scored 69%?

That tells me quite clearly that it is not the amount of money that you throw at education but how the available dollars are wisely used. We all know families out there that earn 40 to 60k per year. And some of them eat very well, have decent homes, one or two cars, and the kids are involved in a variety of sports. And then there are the others we know that earn the same but the kids go to school without lunch, the house is run down, the one truck is in the shop most of the time and the only sports the kids get to be involved in is at school. The second families will be the complainers. Can't make ends meet, can't exist at this level of income, blame the gov't for their problems.
The only real difference between the two is how they use the available dollars.
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by Osoyoos_Familyof4 »

Well, I am actually back working this year. So, he's not the only breadwinner in this family once again. Either way, he's been a teacher long enough that if his school closes, he still has a job no matter what in another building. So do I in the private sector of education.

I too, have a background in education and business administration. So, although I don't at present work for the school district, I do have an intensive education in regards to education systems and management (corporate, private, independent and non-independent).

I can speak as someone who understands the "system" (as I see it, just like anyone else is entitled to his opinion). And I can speak as a parent of school age children who would rather not send their small children on a bus that would start picking children up at 7:30am and may not be back home at the end of the day until 3:30. I am a parent who has a child, one of whom has special needs and can have a medical crisis at anytime (as in on a bus in the middle of the highway). I am a parent who has no relatives within 3 hours of town who has to figure out what to do with MY students on the fly if I have to go to their school to retrieve them if either of them becomes ill during the day. So in fact, my family's income is secure no matter what happens with a school reorganization. All my concerns are relatable with any working parent whose child could be a 1/2 away from town.
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by twobits »

Osoyoos_Familyof4 wrote:
I can speak as someone who understands the "system"


Yes, it is quite clear that you understand the "system". I am sorry that you have a special needs child but many of us who have raised children all faced challenges. They may not have been labeled ADHD, or Down's, or epileptics, but some of them required that extra effort and attention. As parents we sucked it up and accepted the burden as our own, not the "systems". One of our children had severe anxiety. The school bus was not possible for him for reasons that were never really clearly understood. We had a choice, either move to a new home within walking distance or one parent sacrificed work to accommodate transport to and from school.
I would respectfully suggest that you consider you doing so yourself for your child rather than expecting the "system" to run inefficient buildings to accommodate a very tiny minority that a school bus trip might be a problem for. I am sorry if that sounds crass as it is not intended to be but there comes a point when the village attempts to raise all children, the funding per child is seriously effected by a "system" that tries to cover every eventuality. The Village should not have to step in until the resources or options of the parents are exhausted. And I am sorry OF4, but I think despite what you may think of your own personal situation, I think you have it pretty damn good compared to many and can suck it up and drive your child to school if that is what is needed.
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by Osoyoos_Familyof4 »

Because...

My issues are the same (child with special needs are an added wrinkle, but truthfully not my main event argument).

- I don't want any child to spend potentially 10 hours a week on a bus, special needs or not.

- I don't want to live in a province where small town life is only reserved for retirees because families with children have to move to have some pretty basic services.

- I want to live in a province where we take care of each other, and especially the old, the young, and the sick.

- Yes, I think this is possible, we need to prioritize healthcare and education. I want to live in that place. There is plenty of bloated services in the top level of the Provincial government.
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by Static »

I see nothing wrong with it. Supply and demand. We are having less kids today. Without immigration there would be a declining population.
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by twobits »

Osoyoos_Familyof4 wrote:- I don't want any child to spend potentially 10 hours a week on a bus, special needs or not.


Do you have any idea how many children are reliant on being bused to school? It has been and still is an expected journey for many. In Penticton proper, serviced by Barry and Smith Trucking, 1 in every 4 students get to school by bus. By your logic, we should build schools all over the place so no student should endure a school bus and be able to walk to his/her school. How practical is that?


Osoyoos_Familyof4 wrote:- I want to live in a province where we take care of each other, and especially the old, the young, and the sick.


I've never said I was unwilling to contribute to looking after the old, the young, or the sick. In other words....the minority that are truly disadvantaged. I am of the opinion however, by what you have shared here on these boards about your own personal situation, that you do not fall into the category of disadvantaged. Your husband is a teacher and makes a very good wage and benefit package. That alone elevates you to a level not enjoyed by many local families. Add to the fact that you have re entered the workforce to add to the family income and you are sitting pretty darn good. Yet even at you family income level, you want the "village" to subsidize you by keeping inefficient schools operating.
There is good news for you however. If your child is defined as special needs and unable to take the school bus, a transportation subsidy is available to you. You already know this however and begs the question of why you never mentioned it in this discussion? My last question to you would be....given your household income level, should you qualify for this subsidy or would those funds be better directed to the truly disadvantaged.
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by Osoyoos_Familyof4 »

You seem quite determined to attack me personally, when I was trying to keep it (mostly) general. I was trying to keep it "general" in the way that I get to have an opinion just like any parent effected by school restructuring.

However, since you asked, I'm compelled to comment.

First off, I take umbrage with the word "subsidize". I don't consider a society taking care of each other an issue of subsidy, I consider it an issue of fund-appropriately. Just like we don't say "sick people" are "subsidized" by others because they got cancer and use the provincial health care system to treat it. We don't say "drivers" who use the highway system are "subsidized" by the rest of the people who maybe don't drive. We don't say the people who never enter a provincial park are "subsidizing" those who like to enjoy nature and snowshoe.

Our "system" revolves a pot of money that is gathered from taxes from everyone and distributed by the government. And there are times when some people get to disagree with the way the funds are allocated, to whom, and the basic administration of sources.

My husband who has been teaching for 15 years made on his T4, $65,000 last year. A family of 4, living off $65,000. If you think this is an extravagant amount, then you are dreaming. Just because some people live off less, doesn't make it better. I think we all deserve a decent wage. He has 7 years university, and works very hard (just like the person who makes minimum wage at Tim Hortens). We don't need to break down everyone into the lowest common denominator. Having a child with special needs is so intense, you have no idea. I was in my head, planning on going back to work when she was about 2, but because of circumstance, I waited till she was almost 8. Maternity leave ran out a long time ago. Technically it would probably be better for me to be at home indefinitely because a child with special needs adds about 30 hours more "parenting time" per week than a typical child. But simply said, we're sick of just getting by. Of course people "get by" making less, but at $65,000 a year, we really are living paycheque to paycheque. Until you have a child with special needs you have no idea of the added cost financially this means to a family. There are tons of things because of a $65,000 family income you don't qualify for that helps families with disabled children. And that's ok (maybe), I made the decision that this year I was going to go back to work and see how it goes for all of us.

Now, having children is a bonus to this province. Both our children are extremely bright. Even the child who has some challenges, will very likely grow up to be a productive tax-paying citizen. We sure pay our share of taxes. We pay income tax, sales tax on all their extra curricular activities, we pay tax on their clothes, their food, their everything. They will grow up and pay those things themselves too as adults. We paid taxes on the several homes we've lived in, the cars we've bought, the services we have consumed.

Our town, actually has an enrollment INCREASE. Yes, enrollment increase several years in a row. Because of school restructuring we still could lose our school. We have no empty classrooms, and there are several elementary classrooms with over 30 children in them. The schools that are NOT set to close are within a 15 minute bus ride of larger centres. But because they have a "rural grant" associated with them they are probably pretty safe (perhaps not common knowledge). It is the "politics" of "the system" (at least in this part of the province that would close a school in Osoyoos and keep another running that is not full and does have empty classrooms. But the truth is, I think there are things we pay for as a collective group, that have higher goals than completely making it a race to the bottom line. Education and healthcare is what means something to me. You may wish to run education and healthcare like a business, but I think this is not correct. And having insight into business and educational funding is kinda my "thing". When it's the "network" that would keep a less than efficient school going and closing a busy school, the network funding isn't operating well. British Columbia teachers are the second least funded schools in Canada (as are BC teachers) yet we have the second highest economic indicators in Canada. I think there can be, and there should be a moral-imperative to look after each other. I'm sorry if this concept offends you. Perhaps you would do better in America, but the Canada I respect and want to live in looks after each other, and apparently according to the last federal election, I'm not alone in this ideal.

I am allowed to say that as a parent (forget the special needs issue) doesn't want their child (or anyone's child) to spend 8-10 hours a week on a bus. In Penticton the average bus ride is 10-15 minutes, not 30-45 minutes like the children down in the south will face. And yes, I do think we should have smaller regional schools. Maybe we should take a look at more creative solutions like store-front schools, or church basements (with cheaper rent) in smaller towns who perhaps use a local community centre for physical education, maybe the local artist studio to take art and music. What I'm getting at is that there options other than bussing and taking a school completely out of any town. I am not hung up on a "building" here, I am hung up on a lack of imagination and the will to think creatively outside of a pink brick school house on the hill. We have not gone far enough with our brains to come up with outside of the big box solutions. I think in a province with the resources we have, this is unacceptable. It would be a major hit to towns like Osoyoos, Keremeos, Okanagagan Falls, Oliver, to lose a school. It will have an impact on the local economy and property values. It will have an impact on those who run children's programming after school (recreation, daycare, restaurants etc.) all of whom are employers and tax payers. The real deal here, is closing schools will have such a minimal amount of "actual" savings because the retro-fit to the intake facilities will be HUGE. The bussing costs will be large. Some people will just opt and homeschool or go independent/charter schools. But the hands of the school boards is unfortunate and they are painted into the corner by a stingy province who seems hell bent on focusing on nothing other than LNG (which a huge number of people object to as well. I believe that the provincial government isn't diverse enough, it has lost it's way, and it has disrespected and failed us. It seems clear, that it is a crappy race to the bottom. You may like this race, I get to respectfully disagree.
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by twobits »

This is obviously an example of flogging a dead horse. The near dead capitalist horse pulling the wagon load of socialist entitlement wishes. If you are living paycheque to paycheque on your husbands 65k per yr wages, never mind what you have added to the pot since going back to work, I don't think too many taxpayers are going to be sympathizing with your perceived plight and demand for more government funding to ease your burden. Further discussion here is impossible with someone who makes 65k/yr (plus your salary) thinks they need more gov't money spent to ease their inconvenience of getting their child to school 20 minutes away.
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