School closures - where is public debate?

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Osoyoos_Familyof4
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by Osoyoos_Familyof4 »

My hand to god. I can't think of ONE class offered at Oliver Secondary that isn't already offered at Osoyoos Secondary. Their building is nicer, WAY more fancy, equipment is new and awesome. But class for class, not one course can I think of do they have that we don't.

We have our whole life to be living like grownups. 7 hours a week on a bus is a lot if hours that could be spent working, doing homework, and (gasp...) just having fun. We didn't choose to live in a town without high schools, we aren't that rural. We are losing what we have with stable enrollment projections. There are many cohorts right now in the Elementary school at and above capacity. The closing of this particular school is (I swear to you) really greasy politics (both on the provincial level, the local level, and SD 53 internally. It's a shameful lack of will to think outside if the box and to make adjustments at the administrative level which would have lessened the impact upon the children.
rustled
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by rustled »

Riding the bus can be a more positive experience than you might think. When I was in school, one of the best things about riding the bus was that it was a great time to do absolutely nothing but daydream. I got sick reading for too long, but I could do any homework involving memory work, if I wanted to. So the ride itself wasn't a terrible thing at all.

What was a real problem for me was that my parents weren't able to come and get me after school if I needed to stay late for something, and there were so few others on our route (and none of them lived as far away as I did) that there were no options for catching a ride. So no after-school sports. I think your kids will have more options around that, especially since the district seems to be offering a late bus.

I guess it's possible the district could have found enough cuts elsewhere to offset the cost of keeping your high school open, but I'll bet given the unpopularity of this kind of decision, they would have done so if they could have.

In my experience with school closures and similar issues our families face, how this impacts the children will primarily depend on how their parents react to it.
There is nothing more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. - Martin Luther King Jr.
rustled
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by rustled »

Osoyoos_Familyof4 wrote:We are losing what we have with stable enrollment projections.

Boy, it's sure a lot harder to find enrollment numbers for your district. Have you found them anywhere?
There is nothing more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. - Martin Luther King Jr.
Osoyoos_Familyof4
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by Osoyoos_Familyof4 »

I can't find public projections, only some internal stuff. The District (not the school) is projected to lose 66 students 2016/2017. The District projects to lose another 44 students 2017/2018.

In Osoyoos next year: Set is 2.5 grade 3 classes next year Elementary (yes, there is that many of them). 2 Grade 4 classes. I haven't heard about K or grade 1 yet. I believe it's single digits after that. However the last several years there have been more than 1 of each K and grade 1 and in the last several years there has been many smaller kids.

My beef is this: Osoyoos although slightly (just slightly less) enrollment projections is stable and reasonable. Did changes in "the district " need to change...likely. But it shouldn't have been this school at this time. The public was completely prepared to accept a 4 day work week. Oliver should have lost one of their elementary schools before the only high school in town in Osoyoos. And also the real truth is, I personally don't care hugely if my children end up being bussed in a few years time. It's a bummer, but I accept it. However we will have alternatives should we feel different. But 7 hours a week isn't chump change either. And our one child with some chronic health issues is still perhaps a mystery as to how we'll choose to handle.

But my beef is that Tuc-El-Nuit has been on the chopping block for years and yet Osoyoos Secondary is going first?

But my beef is that only 2 of the 6 trustees are from Osoyoos and no other trustee in their own community stands to lose anything at this time.

But my beef is that no significant cuts were made at the administrative level, nor serious considerations to amalgamate with other more smaller and regional boards.

But my beef is that a seriously fancy high school was built way over their capacity after a fire in a community with shrinking enrollment way worse than Osoyoos. I can't help but to assume they knew this and had ulterior motives and thought the Osoyoos community could suck-it.

But my beef is that they really thought we were too docile and dumb to complain as bitterly as we did.

Did the SD need to change? Yes. Are the communities willing to make compromises? Yes. But we need to consolidate smaller boards, we need the dividing of pie to have more to do with "where the next closest logical place is" as opposed to where it falls in boundary lines on a map. We need to be allowed the freedom to send money back and forth along population commuting lines. For instance, why isn't OK FALLS children going to Penticton when they have the most dire enrollment out of any schools? Because we can't according to district constraints and not common sense. Different SD! Why aren't Keremeos and Cawston (less than 10 minutes away from each other) one big K-12? Why do we have rural school grants that make this happen over what makes more common sense? The only reason the last 3 communities are protected is because of a pretty small potatoes rural school grant. Why can't the SD'S instead get a significant and meaningful budget and are allowed to run with it and trade back and forth children, teachers, EA'S, money,funding, equipment, buildings?

In short (brevity never my strong suit) we need to stop trying the hands of the bean - counters and allowing the population to ebb and flow as it does and be able to let the money follow the children. Maybe we need 4 day weeks? Maybe we need shared buildings with the communities? Maybe we need corporate sponsorships? Maybe we need them to stop buying the teachers friggen lunch at the curriculum meetings (I can bag my own damn sandwich). Maybe they should stop buying us t-shirts, water bottles and bloody pens with the school name on it. Maybe they don't give the trustees a $14,000 junket to the coast with fancy hotels and meals when the optics are so greasy , I feel like I need a month if showers.

Wake up! The government could be more generous. And the education system needs to get out of the dark ages with wanton spending on dumb stuff. We need more availability to spend in a manner that makes sense as oppose to being forced to spend in a way that it always was.

Gosh, I'm so frustrated and disappointed.
rustled
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by rustled »

Osoyoos_Familyof4 wrote:...
Gosh, I'm so frustrated and disappointed.

I see that!

I thought you'd be interested in the information in the PDF the District released yesterday. Although it doesn't provide anywhere near as much information as we have available in SD67, it does answers some of my questions and addresses some of the concerns you've mentioned.
http://www.sd53.bc.ca/district/osstransition/Frequently%20Asked%20Questions%202%20lm.pdf
There is nothing more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. - Martin Luther King Jr.
twobits
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by twobits »

XT225 wrote:
You bet I would pay more to keep every school that is still in good enough shape, open. Pretty sure there are no teachers teaching 8 students in our district; nice try though.


Ooops,my serious bad XT. In my brevity I said 8 to 1 student to teacher ratio. I should have been more specific and said 8 to 1 staff per student. Not that that nuance should make any difference to the cost of delivering education to each student. The numbers are all there for you to see if you want to bother to take the time. If you do, you will see that the cost of delivering education to our students is consumed by wages of staff to the tune of 80%. That leaves only 20% of the budget to pay for all the programs, heat light etc. Common sense should dictate that if wages are consuming 80% of the budget, that is the the go to area to gain efficiencies and that means making sure staff to student ratio's are sufficient. Note that I am not saying to reduce wages. I am just saying each staff member should be expected to carry the load of a number of students that makes sense for their renumeration.
Education delivered should be maximizing the return to students.....not staff numbers. This link provided by Rustled in a previous post should make it obvious to you that this amalgamation is actually a benefit to all of the senior students of both Osyoos and Oliver. http://www.sd53.bc.ca/district/osstrans ... 2%20lm.pdf Just look at the courses that can now be offered with a more populated and higher student to staff ratio. Neither school could offer these opportunities before and now they will be. For the average inconvenience of a 17 minute bus ride, smart money says these kids will be better off and have an opportunity to get a much better experience in High School.
And I hate to say it XT, but you are being blinded by political hatred rather than truly drilling down to the reality of what is really in the student's best interest in gaining a quality education. Your position of keeping these schools open is actually doing these students a huge disservice. Bottom line is you are buying the story of the BCTF and NDP that education in this Province is grossly underfunded. They like to tout numbers like $1000 per student less than Alberta. That could well be true. But it could equally mean that Alberta is grossly inefficient in it's delivery of education and is not a benchmark to aspire to. It is not B TW, but that is a topic for another thread. Just wait until Notely and her NDP have to negotiate the teachers contract in Alberta! The conversation will go something like this......"With resource revenues being unreliable It is time to ask why BC students are rated among the top performers in the country and world, why cannot we also not achieve that with $1000 less per student." The BCTF will tell you it is all about the dedication of BC Teachers. I have no doubt the majority are dedicated. What I do not believe is that Alberta teachers are less dedicated to their students. They just have schools at every four lane crossing on the prairie that need to be closed and consolidated and staff that are not drunk on oil money.
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Osoyoos_Familyof4
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by Osoyoos_Familyof4 »

Having taught in Alberta: You mean the province that pays teachers 20% more than this one? And that was pre- NDP.


You mean Alberta where my cohort got offered full time contracts usually within 3 years of graduation?

You mean Alberta where I rarely saw the squeeze of resources and materials like I see here?

I could care less about the BCTF. The only time we ever discuss union politics in our home was during contract negotiations. We've never been union people and likely never will be. BCTF is something we pay dues to, and that's pretty much it.

It really bothers me that I can't be an educator without such pre-judgement about who I am personally and politically. You'd be surprised.
twobits
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by twobits »

Osoyoos_Familyof4 wrote:

You mean Alberta where my cohort got offered full time contracts usually within 3 years of graduation?

You mean Alberta where I rarely saw the squeeze of resources and materials like I see here?



Both of the above comments really support the argument I am making. It is a budget that is totally disconnected from the reality of sustainability!!!! They hired teachers for every four classroom school and any time they said they needed more resources, oil money was there and they gave it to them. Now that reality will set in, let's see what happens. If you expect BC taxpayers to rise to the bar of wasted funds like Alberta...... sorry but most of us will not bite that as a comparative benchmark to achieve.
And while you have provided some valuable comments and insight to the workings of this district, and despite your professions to being actually on the right side of political center, the bottom line is that the main income of your family comes from the Public Education dollars provided by the taxpayer so your comments have to be measured with that in mind.
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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XT225
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by XT225 »

To Twobits, your points noted; hopefully mine as well. Not going to get into a further pizzazzing match over this. Ratios, funding, etc...very complex; none of us really know all the details, especially with all the closed door meetings. In some ways, I have little respect for most of the trustees but know they have a job to do and with continual LESS funding, that's tough to do; (lets not get into the declining enrolment at the moment thing). I fully believe that adding Tr. Creek school into the mix at the last moment was a pressure tactic to get you know who (sorry, guess he really isn't your buddy) out of hiding and it worked, though a bit late and not with a ton of cash; just enough to further confuse the board as to what the next move should be. He must be feeling the heat big time from his neighbours and with all the new lots out there going in, the enrollment is only going UPward in the near future. I still won't vote for the guy; done too little for our riding. Independent is the only way to go in future and no I am not a die hard NDP'er. We need another party in this Province other than them; there was one building but it trainwrecked in short order and we got stuck with the Lieberals.
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by rustled »

I'm having difficulty imagining what the trustees could have gained from getting Ashton involved.

It's not up to the MLAs to overstep and insert themselves into the process, any more than it was up to the mayor of Osoyoos to tell the school boards what to do. We elect people specifically to manage the district, and we should expect this to be the only interest they are serving, so they're never making decisions that prioritize the competing interests of municipalities, regional districts or provincial government. Our trustees may not be perfect, but they've been pretty effective in this district. I think they all realize that managing the school district is their responsibility, and I doubt very much they would have welcomed having their MLA take an active role. If you think they could gave gotten him involved to convince the province to hand over more cash, that's a misconception about how the funding works.They don't have that misconception.

You're probably right that Ashton is taking flack from his neighbors. Looks to me like he saw an opportunity to capitalize on the fact some of his constituents are unhappy with this decision. It was crass and cruel and a pointless pretense.
There is nothing more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. - Martin Luther King Jr.
twobits
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by twobits »

XT225 wrote:To Twobits, your points noted; hopefully mine as well. Not going to get into a further pizzazzing match over this. Ratios, funding, etc...very complex; none of us really know all the details


Good observation XT. That is something all of the armchair school trustee's need to understand. It actually behooves me how all of the experts on finances and the proper way to run a school district come out of the woodwork to offer up their "well researched opinions", only when there is an issue that could directly affect their lifestyle.
With the exception of two name I recognize, I have not seen any of these new "experts" publicly vocal on any Summerland civic issue let alone the School Board Trustee's......until this issue. Where were they? I would even venture a guess that nary one of them attended a School Board Meeting or even read the minutes of those meetings.
The test of their passion and interest in the local school district will be measured by their willingness to put their name on the ballot at the next election instead of position by acclimation cuz nobody gave a chit until it affected them directly.
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twobits
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by twobits »

rustled wrote:
You're probably right that Ashton is taking flack from his neighbors. Looks to me like he saw an opportunity to capitalize on the fact some of his constituents are unhappy with this decision. It was crass and cruel and a pointless pretense.


Very much liked your post but this last statement went a little far. Crass, cruel and pointless pretense would be better directed at the Liberal policy decision makers on this subject. The heat is on in so many areas of the Province that are facing school closures because of declining enrollment. IMO, it was cruel and pointless pretense for the Liberal party to think that ponying up 25 mill to be doled out across the entire Province with the caveat to spend it however you want was cruel to all of the School Trustee's and the MLA's they sent out to deliver the good news. It's the Minister of Education that f'ed up this one. Ashton and every other MLA in the Province facing school closures were thrown under the bus on this one.
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Osoyoos_Familyof4
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by Osoyoos_Familyof4 »

I think it shows a remarkable lack of understanding on the parts of both Ashton and Larson about the size of the deficit and scope of the "issues" that neither of them seemed to realize the paltry sum that was handed back by the government (which again was not new money, it was money given and then taken back earlier this year) could possibly keep a school open. It demonstrates how little they concerned themselves with a situation which was happening in their own constituency that they'd be willing to embarrass themselves by going in front of cameras (hoping to get media attention like they were there to save the day) offering up this pitiful amount that likely will result in little to no changes overall to either of the S. OK school districts. At best, this funding might give a stay-of-execution for one-school for a year or two, but without significant changes it won't be a meaningful change for jack-squat! WHat it might do is buy some books and supplies which is great, but it won't tackle any of the larger issues for long.

I disagree that MLA's should not have any involvement in the region's education needs. They represent the community and ought to be going to bat for us, just like the trustees.

I think that Larson chose to have a press conference in Osoyoos about this funding was the height of chutzpah and really so very embarrassing. She was completely invisible for the entire proceedings of school closure talks. She said outright that she felt it wasn't her jurisdiction to comment. Then when the party realized how unpopular and polarizing this issue was decided to do some pitiful too-little-too-late damage control, she was so berefit of knowledge of the funding issue that's she dared to make comments like telling the trustees to "do the right thing and keep Osoyoos Secondary open". With what? $118,000! What's a joke. You have to be completely nuts to think you could save a school with $118,000. Yet Larson comes into a town to announce this money (...please Sir, can I have some more...) and the town is so emotional and raw about this issue, and rumour was that she was going to make an announcement about funding which "could" have saved the school, and instead she dashed the hopes of all who went to that press conference and ended up with egg-on-her-face. And pretty much the same goes for Ashton, although it looks like he may have been marginally more involved than she was from the beginning.

Both Larson and Ashton were left hanging with their pants down by their own party. But if they had done their homework, they could have saved themselves the embarrassment of standing in front of taxpayers and reporters to announce something about nothing.
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by rustled »

rustled wrote:You're probably right that Ashton is taking flack from his neighbors. Looks to me like he saw an opportunity to capitalize on the fact some of his constituents are unhappy with this decision. It was crass and cruel and a pointless pretense.

twobits wrote:Very much liked your post but this last statement went a little far. Crass, cruel and pointless pretense would be better directed at the Liberal policy decision makers on this subject. The heat is on in so many areas of the Province that are facing school closures because of declining enrollment. IMO, it was cruel and pointless pretense for the Liberal party to think that ponying up 25 mill to be doled out across the entire Province with the caveat to spend it however you want was cruel to all of the School Trustee's and the MLA's they sent out to deliver the good news. It's the Minister of Education that f'ed up this one. Ashton and every other MLA in the Province facing school closures were thrown under the bus on this one.

The timing of the Provincial announcement was utterly repugnant. "Look, we're spending more on education, aren't we wonderful" when really, they were only giving back what they'd forced the boards to cut.

This is buying the taxpayers with their own money, as someone so eloquently put it at the Pen Hi ceremonies last week. But at least Fassbender's instructions were appropriate: local school boards are in the best position to determine how to use the money. It should be used to serve the greatest needs of students throughout the district, not targeted to the special interests of a few.

Ashton then called a press conference. I can't speak to what they other MLAs did, but Ashton went to the effort of ensuring the parents who were upset about the school closures were invited to attend. But apparently he didn't make the effort to inform the school board that he'd called a press conference on their lawn. They heard about it through the grapevine. So this was in no way ever intended to show that our local MLA was willing to work with and support the SBO to ensure the best interests of public education. Quite the opposite.

Instead, it was a nicely orchestrated event, in which he was clearly relying on the upset parents to help him look like a hero. He knows full well (at least, one would hope he's clever enough to understand, perhaps I'm giving him too much credit?) that there's no way these funds should be thrown down the drain to keep Trout Creek or West Bench open for one more year. So he was perfectly safe in telling these upset and unhappy people what they wanted to hear, when he knew full well they still wouldn't get what they were hoping for. That's akin to picking the scabs off their wounds, just so he can look like he's arriving with the cure when in fact he's got no fix, and they just need to get on with healing.

Respectfully, I do think his press conference was crass, cruel, and a pointless pretense.
There is nothing more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. - Martin Luther King Jr.
rustled
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Re: School closures - where is public debate?

Post by rustled »

Osoyoos_Familyof4 wrote:I think it shows a remarkable lack of understanding on the parts of both Ashton and Larson about the size of the deficit and scope of the "issues" that neither of them seemed to realize the paltry sum that was handed back by the government (which again was not new money, it was money given and then taken back earlier this year) could possibly keep a school open. It demonstrates how little they concerned themselves with a situation which was happening in their own constituency that they'd be willing to embarrass themselves by going in front of cameras (hoping to get media attention like they were there to save the day) offering up this pitiful amount that likely will result in little to no changes overall to either of the S. OK school districts. At best, this funding might give a stay-of-execution for one-school for a year or two, but without significant changes it won't be a meaningful change for jack-squat! WHat it might do is buy some books and supplies which is great, but it won't tackle any of the larger issues for long.

I disagree that MLA's should not have any involvement in the region's education needs. They represent the community and ought to be going to bat for us, just like the trustees.

I think that Larson chose to have a press conference in Osoyoos about this funding was the height of chutzpah and really so very embarrassing. She was completely invisible for the entire proceedings of school closure talks. She said outright that she felt it wasn't her jurisdiction to comment. Then when the party realized how unpopular and polarizing this issue was decided to do some pitiful too-little-too-late damage control, she was so berefit of knowledge of the funding issue that's she dared to make comments like telling the trustees to "do the right thing and keep Osoyoos Secondary open". With what? $118,000! What's a joke. You have to be completely nuts to think you could save a school with $118,000. Yet Larson comes into a town to announce this money (...please Sir, can I have some more...) and the town is so emotional and raw about this issue, and rumour was that she was going to make an announcement about funding which "could" have saved the school, and instead she dashed the hopes of all who went to that press conference and ended up with egg-on-her-face. And pretty much the same goes for Ashton, although it looks like he may have been marginally more involved than she was from the beginning.

Both Larson and Ashton were left hanging with their pants down by their own party. But if they had done their homework, they could have saved themselves the embarrassment of standing in front of taxpayers and reporters to announce something about nothing.

This is bang on, exactly what I've been trying to say.

I'd be careful of any MLA being overly involved with trying to influence local school boards. They should be a supportive part of the team, but they should never get to direct our boards.

Our local boards cannot be beholden to interests other than those of the students, which means they must have autonomy. I know some people feel otherwise, but if we all paid more attention to who we were electing, and if we all better understood what our boards should and should not be doing, the accountability wouldn't be such an issue.

Twobits is bang on in his assessment of how little attention we pay to school board business until it's personal.
There is nothing more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. - Martin Luther King Jr.
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