Penticton Public Transit

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GordonH
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Re: Penticton Public Transit

Post by GordonH »

Bottom line it does not make sense to have full size buses being used that are half full.
BC Transit the local contractors & taxpayers would all benefit better use of resources.
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Dizzy1
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Re: Penticton Public Transit

Post by Dizzy1 »

GordonH wrote:Bottom line it does not make sense to have full size buses being used that are half full.
BC Transit the local contractors & taxpayers would all benefit better use of resources.

Actually, the bottom line is what the ridership numbers are over a longer period of time, not just by run. You might see a bus half empty, but unless you're following that same bus all day, every day you don't have the complete picture. There are some routes that are quite stale with ridership, but to dedicate a smaller bus on that route would end up costing more than a larger bus because you'd have to dedicate a whole schedule for that one run vs. having an already capable fleet that can be integrated into all the routes in the system.

The contractor won't benefit in any way, BC Transit won't benefit other than being able to sell a bus in the promise of cheap labour. The individual taxpayer might save a buck or two if the reduced wage is agreed to - that would be the only way that any significant cost reductions would be made - fuel and maintenance costs on a 40' or 30' bus is insignificant. The employees won't benefit anyway because they'll be loosing a good $13 000 year - that's their kids education.

The problem with so many smaller transit systems in this Province is that they are inefficient, they have very inconsistent service and are decades behind the rest of the world in implementing a successful transit system. Public transit in this Province relies on people who are unable to drive (seniors, disabilities, unemployed) and students. The increase in fuel costs over the last few years saw a decent rise in ridership around the Province, but BC Transit and the municipalities have been slow to react to streamline their schedules and routes to keep those passengers. As a result, fuel prices have gone down and BC Transit has lost many of those passengers.
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twobits
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Re: Penticton Public Transit

Post by twobits »

Dizzy1 wrote: BC Transit is selling it to municipalities with a promise that the drivers will be paid less even though they're doing the same work with the same loads. As long as they get paid the same, I say bring em on - but if the drivers are gonna get paid less - fight them to keep them out of your system.


Sure, we are all gonna protest in the streets over that. Since you are so well informed could you please inform us of the dipolma, degree, 4 yr apprenticeship program......any kind of course or training required beyond a class 2 drivers license to drive a bus that pays 27 dollars an hour plus full pension and benefits after 2 yrs service.
And I would also like to know how the number of passengers on the bus should determine how much the driver is paid? Seems to me the only increased workload would be looking at a valid bus pass for a few more people while they boarded or making sure they paid their fare while the driver sits in a comfy chair. Following your logic, the hourly rate should be about 10 bucks when only two people are on the bus.
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Re: Penticton Public Transit

Post by Dizzy1 »

twobits wrote:Sure, we are all gonna protest in the streets over that.

Then don't complain about nothing but low paying jobs in BC.
twobits wrote:Since you are so well informed could you please inform us of the dipolma, degree, 4 yr apprenticeship program......any kind of course or training required beyond a class 2 drivers license to drive a bus that pays 27 dollars an hour plus full pension and benefits after 2 yrs service.

Full pension? LMAO! They wish they had a full pension, very few transit drivers in this Province have a pension, the only BC Transit drivers I'm aware that have a pension is Victoria since they are the only drivers that are not contracted out.

And I wasn't aware that one needed a degree or diploma in order to make a liveable income. So, what would you consider a fair wage to earn a living?

twobits wrote:And I would also like to know how the number of passengers on the bus should determine how much the driver is paid?

Ask BC Transit, they're the ones trying to implement it. And had you read my posts correctly, its not the number of passengers, its the number of seats. The way I see it, if you require a specific set of licensing and do the exact same job, the wage should be the same regardless of seats or passengers.
twobits wrote:Seems to me the only increased workload would be looking at a valid bus pass for a few more people while they boarded or making sure they paid their fare while the driver sits in a comfy chair.

This statement alone demonstrates that you have absolutely no clue on the subject at hand.
twobits wrote:Following your logic, the hourly rate should be about 10 bucks when only two people are on the bus.

Again, its not my logic.

It's taken drivers in this Province a decade, in most cases even more to get to the pay level they have and for a lot of them, they haven't even hit your suggested $27/hr mark. The cost of living is going up at a ridiculous rate, and you think its OK to take a liveable wage away from your fellow citizen? Good grief.
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twobits
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Re: Penticton Public Transit

Post by twobits »

Dizzy1 wrote: The cost of living is going up at a ridiculous rate, and you think its OK to take a liveable wage away from your fellow citizen? Good grief.


That is not what I am inferring. I am a believer in wages earned reflecting skill set brought to the table. And that does not mean a higher degree, diploma, or trade certification but it sure does help. Millions of workers have none of these but instead have years of on the job training and experience that makes them valuable in the job market cuz their skill set puts them in demand. That is the key....having a skill set that is in demand and someone is willing to pay for it. And while my intent is not to belittle any job, let's be honest in the the required skill set to drive a bus is pretty damn low so the wage should reflect that. For lord's sake, an experienced short order cook has far more skills than a bus driver will ever obtain and does not get that wage because there are enough experienced short order cooks out there to supply and satisfy the job demand at wages offered. As soon as there is a shortage, wages will be bid up. It's simple supply and demand. If one wants a good wage, make yourself in demand. Don't expect taxpayers to subsidize your "livable wage" when there are a hundred people that would apply for a single job posting and gladly drive a bus for 75% of the current wage.
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fall
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Re: Penticton Public Transit

Post by fall »

twobits wrote:
That is not what I am inferring. I am a believer in wages earned reflecting skill set brought to the table. And that does not mean a higher degree, diploma, or trade certification but it sure does help. Millions of workers have none of these but instead have years of on the job training and experience that makes them valuable in the job market cuz their skill set puts them in demand. That is the key....having a skill set that is in demand and someone is willing to pay for it. And while my intent is not to belittle any job, let's be honest in the the required skill set to drive a bus is pretty damn low so the wage should reflect that. For lord's sake, an experienced short order cook has far more skills than a bus driver will ever obtain and does not get that wage because there are enough experienced short order cooks out there to supply and satisfy the job demand at wages offered. As soon as there is a shortage, wages will be bid up. It's simple supply and demand. If one wants a good wage, make yourself in demand. Don't expect taxpayers to subsidize your "livable wage" when there are a hundred people that would apply for a single job posting and gladly drive a bus for 75% of the current wage.


Very well put and very true.
fall
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Re: Penticton Public Transit

Post by fall »

Paramedics are one of the most underpaid taxpayer funded professions out there I think, earning less than a bus driver and requiring real skills and training. There is also a demand for them. I would like to see them if anyone financially compensated better. I could not support the bus drivers.
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Re: Penticton Public Transit

Post by Dizzy1 »

twobits wrote:That is not what I am inferring. I am a believer in wages earned reflecting skill set brought to the table. And that does not mean a higher degree, diploma, or trade certification but it sure does help. Millions of workers have none of these but instead have years of on the job training and experience that makes them valuable in the job market cuz their skill set puts them in demand. That is the key....having a skill set that is in demand and someone is willing to pay for it. And while my intent is not to belittle any job, let's be honest in the the required skill set to drive a bus is pretty damn low so the wage should reflect that. For lord's sake, an experienced short order cook has far more skills than a bus driver will ever obtain and does not get that wage because there are enough experienced short order cooks out there to supply and satisfy the job demand at wages offered. As soon as there is a shortage, wages will be bid up. It's simple supply and demand. If one wants a good wage, make yourself in demand. Don't expect taxpayers to subsidize your "livable wage" when there are a hundred people that would apply for a single job posting and gladly drive a bus for 75% of the current wage.

I get what you are saying, but driving public transit involves a lot more than people realize. And you are right, there are people lining up and would love to have that job even at 75% less wage - but here is the thing, and I'm speaking from 20 years of experience in the transportation industry, whether it be ground or air. While they will line up for that job, I can promise you, at that wage, the employee will last 6-12 months before they ask for more or quit. Once you have a high turn around of employees, training costs go up which can in some cases, end up costing you more than keeping a steady rooster of employees at a decent wage.
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canuck500
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Re: Penticton Public Transit

Post by canuck500 »

There are already two Vicinity's in the Penticton fleet, the bigger buses actually offer more flexibility you can put fewer people on a big bus but still have the capacity to handle things at peak times where as with a smaller bus you will have to increase frequency during certain periods to handle the volume. There is also a cost savings in volume purchasing of standard size buses plus the bigger buses are more durable and last longer.
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Re: Penticton Public Transit

Post by Dizzy1 »

canuck500 wrote:There are already two Vicinity's in the Penticton fleet, the bigger buses actually offer more flexibility you can put fewer people on a big bus but still have the capacity to handle things at peak times where as with a smaller bus you will have to increase frequency during certain periods to handle the volume. There is also a cost savings in volume purchasing of standard size buses plus the bigger buses are more durable and last longer.

Yup. There are a lot of things that are involved in such decisions.
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Re: Penticton Public Transit

Post by twobits »

Yup, there are a lot of things to be considered. One of those things to be considered is why a grade 10 education with a $200 Class 2 drivers licence should feel they should be entitled to a 50k/yr job with benefits when the bus they are driving has to be subsidized by people working for far less in wages.
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Re: Penticton Public Transit

Post by Dizzy1 »

twobits wrote:Yup, there are a lot of things to be considered. One of those things to be considered is why a grade 10 education with a $200 Class 2 drivers licence should feel they should be entitled to a 50k/yr job with benefits when the bus they are driving has to be subsidized by people working for far less in wages.

You claim that your intent is not to belittle a profession, but yet you go on about bus drivers sitting in a "comfy chair", require no skill set and only need a Grade 10 education. You've already demonstrated, quite clearly that you have zero clue about the profession yet you feel you have the authority to determine that they require no skill set. Driving a bus and being responsible for the lives of hundreds of people everyday may not be considered a skill set for you, but the fact is there is more to the job then simply sitting in a "comfy chair".

The drivers don't feel that they're entitled to the wage they receive, they receive the wage that the industry has determined what is a fair wage given their job responsibilities - and that is across the board, across the country.
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fall
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Re: Penticton Public Transit

Post by fall »

Dizzy1 wrote:You claim that your intent is not to belittle a profession, but yet you go on about bus drivers sitting in a "comfy chair", require no skill set and only need a Grade 10 education. You've already demonstrated, quite clearly that you have zero clue about the profession yet you feel you have the authority to determine that they require no skill set. Driving a bus and being responsible for the lives of hundreds of people everyday may not be considered a skill set for you, but the fact is there is more to the job then simply sitting in a "comfy chair".

The drivers don't feel that they're entitled to the wage they receive, they receive the wage that the industry has determined what is a fair wage given their job responsibilities - and that is across the board, across the country.


You do seem to know a lot about the bus industry for sure, what type of education or skills are required in order to operate a bus aside from the class two drivers license? I realize that there is more to the job as is the case with any job but do not consider being responsible for lives a skill, everyone on the road is responsible for lives when they get behind the wheel. I think that many operators certainly do feel that they are entitled to what they are paid and more, like many employees and jobs. You wouldn't know it by all of the complaints against operators. Do you have any idea how many there are per year (if they keep track or document them). I am not necessarily saying I think they are overpaid for what they do considering garbage truck drivers in the central Okanagan make near that and really any truck driver is earning 20 or more per hour. I would like to see the union dissolved for transit drivers, other professions have started doing away with them.
twobits
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Re: Penticton Public Transit

Post by twobits »

Dizzy1 wrote: Driving a bus and being responsible for the lives of hundreds of people everyday may not be considered a skill set for you, but the fact is there is more to the job then simply sitting in a "comfy chair".


Figured you would try to play that card. I think people feel pretty safe in ten tons of bus at City speed limits. I personally fear being poisoned by a short order cook more than getting on a City transit bus. And they feed way more people every day than you will ever see on Penticton transit buses any day of the week.
Dizzy1 wrote:The drivers don't feel that they're entitled to the wage they receive, they receive the wage that the industry has determined what is a fair wage given their job responsibilities - and that is across the board, across the country.


You are correct here. The industry has determined what the wage is. One could also substitute "union" for "industry". That does not mean it is a fair wage that reflects the skills required or effort required. What it means is it just another job that required taxpayer subsidization that continually goes to the bottomless pit of taxpayer resources because you want parity across the country with no grounding in reality that the job is the same across the country. Just like the 80 or 90k per year Firemen that have two day shifts, two sleepovers, and four days off need the same wage here in Penticton as in Vancouver.
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Dizzy1
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Re: Penticton Public Transit

Post by Dizzy1 »

twobits wrote:
You are correct here. The industry has determined what the wage is. One could also substitute "union" for "industry". That does not mean it is a fair wage that reflects the skills required or effort required. What it means is it just another job that required taxpayer subsidization that continually goes to the bottomless pit of taxpayer resources because you want parity across the country with no grounding in reality that the job is the same across the country. Just like the 80 or 90k per year Firemen that have two day shifts, two sleepovers, and four days off need the same wage here in Penticton as in Vancouver.

I'm glad you brought those points up.

1) Penticton Transit (unless its changed very recently) is not unionized.
2) Penticton Transit makes about the same as Vernon Transit which is unionized.
3) Kelowna Transit is larger, the drivers having to contend with more traffic and more assaults, make more than Vernon and Penticton drivers.
4) Vancouver Transit, the drivers having to contend with more traffic and more assaults than Kelowna make more.

See how the industry works? Its all in proportion - across the industry. When employees, employers and Union sit down at the bargaining table, comparable wages are agreed on. Sure, you'll always have the employees who want more, but thats in every and any workplace. But wage increases are always based on comparable systems.
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