Penticton FireDept rescue boat

[twobits]

http://www.castanet.net/edition/news-story--21-.htm

I would be interested in seeing some comments on this news article......

Was the RDOS right?
Is Penticton right?
Does 180k for a hard hulled zodiak seem a bit rich? Dunno, but any boat I see with a 180k price on it is a pretty fricken nice tub.
Why is Penticton's current boat "soon to be unsuitable" for Okanagan Lake?
Could it be refurbished for far less or is this another new toy on a wish list?
Why is Jakbite so keen to buy this boat?
What is the residual value of the current boat that another community might be happy to have for their needs and is that reflected in the 180k price tag? I know it's not scrap.

[GIS_Dude]

Lol, 180k would put a 40 foot cruiser out on the lake with it's own zodiac runabout. Could have the cruiser outfitted as a triage unit too for that matter! The managers of these public assets really need to get back to reality with what is really necessary for these public utilities...same story with the new RCMP buildings getting built in every small town, way too much building for population served.

[fluffy]

I couldn't tell what the value of a rescue class zodiac is, but experience has shown that it's all to easy to view the public purse as a horn of plenty.

A cursory snoop around the net puts top-of-the-line military/rescue class rigid hull inflatables in the $40K US range so I'm guessing more than half the $180K Cdn price tag quoted in the article is for other items, equipment and a trailer perhaps. I can't shake the picture of the spoiled teen running loose at the mall with Daddy's charge card.

Twobits has some excellent questions about trade-in values too, if these things are that pricey new then a second hand unit has to be worth a few bucks.

Too many questions going unanswered here.

[Fancy]

Did a little looking and found one site that stated a new 25 foot rigid inflatable zodiac was built at a cost of $100,000 (US). I was a little surprised but most seemed to be a lot less. Other districts seem to be having issues as well.
http://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/2011 ... themselves

[twobits]

I couldn't tell what the value of a rescue class zodiac is, but experience has shown that it's all to easy to view the public purse as a horn of plenty.

And that is why I started this post. I think we have become too accustomed to accepting without any meaningful question about true needs. Have we put Fire, and as a previous poster pointed out, the RCMP, on such pedestals that we accept their budget wish lists as minimum requirements. Or worse yet, abrogate our right to question "why", if these standards are written by Firemen or Police themselves for obvious self serving reasons. Their counter to that is that it is a public safety issue upon which the general public nod their heads in agreement like little trained minions that buy into the "but what if someone loses their life" . But somewhere "reasonable ability and expectations" have to be real.
Imagine the Medical system with such a philosophy. An MRI and defib on every block cuz if we don't have that, a life could be lost. If doctors could write minimum standards for requirements to achieve that goal, no one could afford the cost of medical care. Somehow if a Fire Dept or RCMP says we need this stuff...... it is god speak.
The more I think about it, I am thankful the majority of RDOS directors had the stones to just say no. The downside is our idiot will find some taxpayer money to pay the full pull himself.

[fall]

The police zodiac in Kelowna was 250, 180 is not that out of line once fully equipped.

[Drip_Torch]

Was the RDOS right?
Is Penticton right?
Does 180k for a hard hulled zodiak seem a bit rich? Dunno, but any boat I see with a 180k price on it is a pretty fricken nice tub.
Why is Penticton's current boat "soon to be unsuitable" for Okanagan Lake?
Could it be refurbished for far less or is this another new toy on a wish list?
Why is Jakbite so keen to buy this boat?
What is the residual value of the current boat that another community might be happy to have for their needs and is that reflected in the 180k price tag? I know it's not scrap.

RDOS action item: follow up research on response times and overall lake coverage - yes, I can appreciate their approach.

Is Penticton right? Well personally, for a 180k, I'd shop for something with leather recliners, pillow top matrasses, satellite TV and a searay logo - myself. But, that's why they don't let the public or politicians go shopping for emergency services gear. I don't really know what makes Zodiacs SO big ticket, but that seems to be what they are.

My observation... every year, at least a few times, the wind suddenly picks up and almost simultaneously the fire department gets called out to multiple commercial alarms going off in the downtown core and industrial area. As the equipment is leaving the halls for the various dispatches, another round of calls come in for power related issues, usually involving branches on lines, or lines down. The dispatchers, then seem to take a breath, and out go the calls for marine rescue - in multiples and on both lakes. I know this, cause I'm usually loading the truck with my boots, ditty bag, a shovel, a p-can, as well as my video gear. (Cause, who wouldn't want another "newshawk" t-shirt - right?) Every now and then, I get lucky and find myself in the right spot at almost the right time, but usually I end up casually observing the mayhem on the big lake.

So, ... "toy on a wishlist" - nope, not in my view. If you had a heart attack on main street and had to wait an hour for an ambulance because the first car broke down on route, I suspect you'd be a little disappointed. I think it's entirely reasonable to have a marine rescue service expectation when you're visiting a city between two lakes. I also expect, a realistic HRVA, would identify a number of different scenarios that we could reasonably expect our fire services to be prepared for.

Over the years, I've initiated a few marine rescue calls on the big lake, and all of them have resulted in a mutual aid calls to Naramata - for their boat. One of those calls resulted in a response that I could only describe as "cringe-worthy", and while I do feel it was right to make the call under the circumstances that I was witnessing - I would certainly have second thoughts before dialing 911 under those same conditions. Point being: Naramata's boat is edgy - at times.

I'm happy with the RDOS response, it seems to me that the issue is being further investigated and they seem to recognize the increased capacity on Okanagan Lake will benefit more than just Penticton city residents. I wonder, if the city and the RDOS, are looking at enough boat for the broader service needs. Frankly, I'd like to see something in the water, during the summer at this end of the lake, that has a water delivery system too - a fire/rescue boat. Perhaps, this boat is provisioned as such?

The old boat, seems suitable for Skaha Lake to me and thus I do think it's appropriate for the city to be seeking some funding from the other areas that enjoy the benefits of this service. All in all, my personal opinion (FWIW) is mayor AJ and council are doing the right thing in going to the RDOS for funding on this regional shared service.

[fluffy]

Fancy raised a good point in her link above, in that Zodiac's themselves have a comparatively short lifespan, what is wrong with aluminum hull boats for this purpose?

[pentona]

Fancy raised a good point in her link above, in that Zodiac's themselves have a comparatively short lifespan, what is wrong with aluminum hull boats for this purpose?

I agree that perhaps a zodiac doesn't last forever. Wonder why they couldn't share the use of the Search & Rescue boat? Its aluminum, quite large and surely doesn't get used that often. http://pensar.ca/about/resources

[Drip_Torch]

Fancy raised a good point in her link above, in that Zodiac's themselves have a comparatively short lifespan, what is wrong with aluminum hull boats for this purpose?

Ask me any other fire service related question and I'll pull the codes and standards from the shelf behind me. Water rescue, not my thing. In my day that involved walking the beaches with a flash light and being at the dock to help get the victims to the ambulance.

I could speculate, the FC is looking for a boat provisioned for mass casualty recovery. Multiple bodies in the water and a boat with a low enough water line that it's possible to scoop and run. The house boat tip over in Kelowna comes to mind, but there are a number of scenarios that could put multiple bodies in the water, such as an accident on the highway, or the unlikely event of a plane ditching on approach. (unlikely, sure, but during the last snowbirds performance I noticed that Naramata fire was in the water and in communication with the airshow coordinator)

I too wondered about PenSar's boat, but I think you can see why it might not be particularly well suited to mass casualty recovery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crPmRQf_Ivs?t=3m32s

(Castanet doesn't seem to like my link, but if you forward to about the 3 min 32 second mark in the video, you can see it's even a bit of a hassle getting fully trained rescuers out of the water with that boat.)

ETA: I think it's also important to keep in mind that Pen Fire is "full service" and thus likely to be the first responder to any haz mat incidents involving the south end of the big lake too. That lake isn't just a recreation area - it's also our water source and many downstream communities rely on us to do our part to keep that source secure.

[Darkre]

I believe the old boat is done, a rescue had to be called off because the hull separated last year.

What I fail to see how this 23' Aluminum wouldn't be more than adequate for $112k
http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/van/bod/5846087161.html

They would be able to outfit the boat with a pump so they could actually put out a fire as well. They could really set that 23' boat up with some serious equipment with the extra 70k they'd save by getting a boat like that over what they are looking at and they could do a lot more than rescue people with it too.

[Tony]

I may be wrong, but Zodiacs are lighter and there fore faster, are way more stable because of the flat bottom, and are close to the water line so pulling people into it is easier. If you look at the layout, the base of a Zodiac has more flat square footage, and there fore can carry more gear.

[Fancy]

There are flat bottom aluminum rescue boats out there.

[Darkre]

Zodiacs are not flat bottom boats. They have the same V-hull as most other boats with hypalon tubes attached to the sides. They are faster as they are lighter but the aluminum that I suggested only as a costing example is an offshore ocean model with a 250hp engine that would be very fast in it's own right and plenty stable in our lakes. It is also an off the shelf model and it wouldn't take much in the way of modifications to add doors to the swim grid that would make it easier to get people in to and out of the boat, even easier than a zodiac. Zodiacs also have very little room for equipment compared to a regular boat due to the width of the pontoons and the fact that you need to be so careful with placement of the equipment so you don't damage them.

Having owned a zodiac they are very fast and cool boat but they are impractical in many ways. I would imagine the model the PFD is after would have at least 18" pontoons which removes 3 feet from the available floor space compared to a standard boat. The life span of them is significantly less than a regular boat as well. I realize speed is key in a water rescue but so is showing up with the right equipment.

[Drip_Torch]

What I fail to see how this 23' Aluminum wouldn't be more than adequate for $112k
http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/van/bod/5846087161.html

I looked at the RDOS site to see if there was any kind of documentation that shows the FC's pitch. Nothing. (I hope the RDOS does the upgrade to video archived meetings soon.)

The only thing I'd speculate is lower center of balance, more stability, easier and perhaps safer to haul folks into the boat, and no swim grid bobbing up and down a few feet in the rougher waters. As much as I like those aluminum crew boats for safety and reliability, I can readily imagine, if not remember, the bruising and contusing one could take working around it on an active weather day.