Pre-written by law tickets/Paul Varga

Re: Pre-written by law tickets

Postby Fancy » Jan 15th, 2018, 11:34 am

Again, bylaws are complaint driven. If no one complains, then nothing will be done.
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Re: Pre-written by law tickets

Postby XT225 » Jan 15th, 2018, 11:36 am

Fancy wrote:Again, bylaws are complaint driven. If no one complains, then nothing will be done.


Ok, time to hit up Bylaw then about anyone loitering or peddling something. Religious or not. What's good for the goose should be good for the gander.
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Re: Pre-written by law tickets

Postby southy » Jan 15th, 2018, 12:27 pm

Fancy wrote:Again, bylaws are complaint driven. If no one complains, then nothing will be done.


I suppose the question is - did someone actually complain specifically about Paul or did certain individuals from city hall feel it was time to do something and Paul was the chosen one (wait a sec where have I read that before). [icon_lol2.gif] Play it out anyway you want - it's bs plain and simple. Where is this going to get the city????

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Re: Pre-written by law tickets

Postby Fancy » Jan 15th, 2018, 12:35 pm

The evidence apparently is there so it will eventually all come to light.
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Re: Pre-written by law tickets

Postby onestop67 » Jan 19th, 2018, 9:26 pm

Triple 6 wrote:what a waste of court time / costs. How the heck is this man to pay said fines. Ugh. I hate stupid people.


Paul is a good guy. He is just down on his luck.

I worked at the real estate company, 3 doors over from where he sits, for two years. I used to talk to him all the time. He never once asked for anything.

The city has something out for him, as all the businesses in that block have no problem with him.

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Re: Pre-written by law tickets

Postby twobits » Jan 20th, 2018, 5:11 pm

onestop67 wrote:The city has something out for him, as all the businesses in that block have no problem with him.


Bylaw complaints are confidential so you would have no way to verify that other businesses in the area have in fact made a complaint that they chose not to share with you.
I don't think Paul is a bad dude either but because he perches in one particular spot always, he has made himself a target for bylaw complaints. And I do think there have been complaints against him from nearby businesses and the City is thus compelled to act on them.
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Re: Pre-written by law tickets

Postby Cactusflower » Jan 21st, 2018, 12:23 pm

XT225 wrote:
Fancy wrote:Apparently the answer is yes if he is panhandling and bylaws are complaint driven so I would suspect there have been complaints.


Perhaps Paul should hold up a religious brochure; that should apparently protect him from Bylaw prosecutions. Bylaw wouldn't dare touch freedom of religious rights. There could be a bylaw, however against loitering and if so, it should be applicable to everyone.


Don't give this guy any more ideas. He's been 'down on his luck' for many years and this is the first time the city has singled him out from all the other panhandlers. It's about time he started taking responsibility for shis own situation.

Incidentally, on the rare occasions I visit that part of the city (usually on market days) I have never seen anyone sitting in that location.
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Re: Pre-written by law tickets

Postby twobits » Jan 21st, 2018, 5:18 pm

Cactusflower wrote:Don't give this guy any more ideas. He's been 'down on his luck' for many years and this is the first time the city has singled him out from all the other panhandlers. It's about time he started taking responsibility for shis own situation.

Incidentally, on the rare occasions I visit that part of the city (usually on market days) I have never seen anyone sitting in that location.


Is "down on luck" the socially correct way to say drug addict now? Not too many years ago Paul had a senior union position in a very well established business here in Penticton that has been here for over 40 years and still is. He actually was a union shop steward. My recollection is that Paul made his own life choices which lead to his loss of employment. I would hardly classify it as "down on luck".
So now we all like Paul, because he is mellow and non aggressive at his perch when panhandling. But the truth is, Paul made his own bed and I personally find it rather sanctimonious of Paul to be causing such a rukass and invoking constitutional rights of freedom of association and disrupting tax paying businesses that just want to clean up the downtown so customers don't have to feel they need to run a gauntlet of panhandlers to shop in downtown. As mellow as Paul may be, he scares people that don't know him and don't want to risk the effort or the risk of an interaction.
I get the business owners point of view and I think Paul should too and move on rather than stand on some kind of principle that he can park his butt wherever and for as long as he wants whenever he wants.
And as an ancillary note to the post responded to.....no you won't see these people at the Farmers Market. Their lifestyle choices have made that time of day the time to get some sleep.
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Re: Pre-written by law tickets

Postby fz6adventure » Jan 25th, 2018, 4:23 pm

Well-known street person Paul Braun pleaded not guilty Thursday in Penticton court to eight municipal bylaw offences he was issued last year for panhandling near a breezeway.

Defence lawyer Paul Varga entered the plea on Braun's behalf after nearly 90 minutes of legal debate with the city’s lawyer.

Braun was issued the tickets for obstructing a public covered walkway, all of which were at a breezeway located on the 200 block of Main Street in Penticton. He was subpoenaed in November after for not paying his fines.

Varga told the courtroom the City of Penticton has targeted his client to try and remove him from the area, adding that prosecuting Braun for his offences would be double jeopardy since Braun has already been issued eight tickets.

City lawyer Troy De Souza stated that Braun "is not going to be hit with tickets and a prosecution," if he is found guilty. De Souza has said the city isn't looking for money, just compliance of its bylaws.

With Thursday being Braun’s third court appearance, De Souza raised concerns that the court was hearing "hypothetical points" which were delaying proceedings.

"In every prosecution I've done, I've never been to court four times before we've been able to set a trial date. It's unusual," he said.

"And every time we have an appearance, there's an article (written)... somewhere in the media... It is our preference to try this case before the court of law, rather than before the media."

Judge Michelle Daneliuk set Braun's trial for four days, which will take place from Sept. 11 to 15. A pre-trial conference is scheduled on Jun. 28.


This has got to be the most ridiculous wastes of taxpayer money ever conceived. Let's see ..... they have been to the courts 4 times so far, there is another day set aside for the pre-trial conference and then there will be a 4 day trial. When you figure all of the expenses for the city and the courts over this debacle, it will end up costing the City of Penticton taxpayers north of $150,000 to "maybe" prove a point that this fellow can not sit in the same spot. That sure works out to an expensive piece of sidewalk! Maybe the mayors crowning moment in his soon to be short political career?

Someone at the City of Penticton needs to take a drug test because no reasonable person would ever pursue this. I can't believe that the taxpayers in the City are sitting quietly by while the City spends their money so frivolously. Perhaps it is time for the City to broker a deal with this fellow - give him half of the $150K if they want the piece of sidewalk so badly.

Meanwhile, the local defence attorneys are rubbing their hands together awaiting their charter motions for serious cases to be dropped because their clients can not be afforded their right to a timely trial.
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Re: Pre-written by law tickets

Postby fz6adventure » Jan 25th, 2018, 4:27 pm

dogspoiler wrote:% 100 percent is caused by this fellow breaking the law. If he had not broken the law there would not have been tickets issued or lawyers involved.


He has been accused of breaking a law. He has not been found guilty. If we assumed that every time a person was charged, he or she was guilty, there would be no need for courts, lawyers or judges. Innocent until PROVEN guilty!!!!
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Re: Pre-written by law tickets

Postby dogspoiler » Jan 25th, 2018, 7:38 pm

fz6adventure wrote:
dogspoiler wrote:% 100 percent is caused by this fellow breaking the law. If he had not broken the law there would not have been tickets issued or lawyers involved.


He has been accused of breaking a law. He has not been found guilty. If we assumed that every time a person was charged, he or she was guilty, there would be no need for courts, lawyers or judges. Innocent until PROVEN guilty!!!!


When someone is issued a ticket they have the options of disputing it or paying it. Ignoring it and doing nothing is an offence by itself. What an incredible waste of money.
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Re: Pre-written by law tickets

Postby fz6adventure » Jan 26th, 2018, 10:41 am

dogspoiler wrote:When someone is issued a ticket they have the options of disputing it or paying it. Ignoring it and doing nothing is an offence by itself. What an incredible waste of money.


The problem is that the fundamental rules of justice do not apply through a bylaw dispute process. The administrative process that is in place makes a presumption of guilt, and it is up to the one charged to then persuade an adjudicator that he/she is not guilty. In the process, you don't get the benefit of disclosure or the ability to examine the bylaw officer or the city ....... and you most definitely can't challenge on the basis of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The bylaw dispute process was put in place to extract from the majority that don't know their rights and would not want to deal with the trouble - so just pay the fines. Of course, if you are not a resident of the city when you get a bylaw notice, the City has no way to collect from you in any event.

What Mr. Braun has done has brought his matter in front of the courts where his rights are fully protected and the fundamental rules of justice will prevail - bravo for him.

Cities are very quick to pass bylaws that don't conform to basic human rights and those rights guaranteed under the Charter. It is only until challenged, they are righted. An example of this is the Abbotsford camping ban by the homeless in public parks.

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Re: Pre-written by law tickets

Postby dogspoiler » Jan 26th, 2018, 10:53 am

Another point could be made that after receiving the first ticket he could have taken steps to see that he did not get seven more for the same thing.
Is it a right to be able to park your butt in a traveled walkway and make others try to get around you ?
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Re: Pre-written by law tickets

Postby fz6adventure » Jan 26th, 2018, 11:12 am

dogspoiler wrote:Another point could be made that after receiving the first ticket he could have taken steps to see that he did not get seven more for the same thing.
Is it a right to be able to park your butt in a traveled walkway and make others try to get around you ?


Why did the City not take him to court after he did not pay the first ticket?

Be serious. He never obstructed the sidewalk any more than the poppy sellers in November, the Salvation Army ringers in December, or the numerous restaurant patios...... they do not give them bylaw infractions.

If you are a taxpayer in Penticton you should be questing why they are using your tax dollars (over $150K) to chase a fine worth $90 that they would never collect anyway. Then if they (highly likely) lose on a Charter application, it will be thousands more once Mr. Braun sues there asses and they have to go back to the drawing board for their bylaw crafting.
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Re: Pre-written by law tickets

Postby dogspoiler » Jan 26th, 2018, 11:45 am

It's not up to people to pick and choose which laws they will follow, think about that. Laws can be challenged and changed if they are deemed unfair. Ignoring them seldom works.
It's totally ridiculous that this has gone this far.
How would you enforce a Bylaw ?
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