Another winery bites the dust

Re: Another winery bites the dust

Postby Snickerdoodle » Jan 13th, 2018, 10:40 pm

I'm curious as to where the FACTS are that the winery industry is starting to fail - other then 1 or 2 castanet posters opinion? I've been in the industry for the last 6 years, and that is FAR from what we are hearing. We can't produce enough to keep it on the shelves. Now what I can say that we do see is that - the big wineries (the big 3 in the valley) make money, the little guys make money, but the middle quantity guys struggle. This is like any business, at some point you get bigger, but are you actually making a profit? There is a magic number (and before you ask no I don't know it).

The other thing we see alot of was non winemakers/growers coming into the valley, buying the land and building a winery with the idea that they will sit back sip wine from the barrels and entertain their friends, while they sit out and watch the view.... That is far far from the truth... Owners are having to be elbows deep in the dirt, barrels, stems and skins.... And when they arent cleaning (which is a huge part of a winery) they are dealing with Canadian regulatory bodies -- that favor international wineries. It is not the glamourous lifestyle that the movies lead people to believe. Nor is it the retirement package that they believe it is.

Two wineries listed on castanet "news" doesn't make for an industry in failure. What I am lost on is why these even made the news?

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Re: Another winery bites the dust

Postby Jflem1983 » Jan 13th, 2018, 11:06 pm

Snickerdoodle wrote:I'm curious as to where the FACTS are that the winery industry is starting to fail - other then 1 or 2 castanet posters opinion? I've been in the industry for the last 6 years, and that is FAR from what we are hearing. We can't produce enough to keep it on the shelves. Now what I can say that we do see is that - the big wineries (the big 3 in the valley) make money, the little guys make money, but the middle quantity guys struggle. This is like any business, at some point you get bigger, but are you actually making a profit? There is a magic number (and before you ask no I don't know it).

The other thing we see alot of was non winemakers/growers coming into the valley, buying the land and building a winery with the idea that they will sit back sip wine from the barrels and entertain their friends, while they sit out and watch the view.... That is far far from the truth... Owners are having to be elbows deep in the dirt, barrels, stems and skins.... And when they arent cleaning (which is a huge part of a winery) they are dealing with Canadian regulatory bodies -- that favor international wineries. It is not the glamourous lifestyle that the movies lead people to believe. Nor is it the retirement package that they believe it is.

Two wineries listed on castanet "news" doesn't make for an industry in failure. What I am lost on is why these even made the news?



I think its news because so many losers like me. Dream of owning a few rows of grapes.
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Re: Another winery bites the dust

Postby stuphoto » Jan 13th, 2018, 11:59 pm

the only thing that I was surprised about was the asking price.
2.9 Million for 7 acres with an existing business is almost a steal for the Okanagan Valley.

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Re: Another winery bites the dust

Postby LANDM » Jan 14th, 2018, 6:50 am

Snickerdoodle wrote:I'm curious as to where the FACTS are that the winery industry is starting to fail - other then 1 or 2 castanet posters opinion? I've been in the industry for the last 6 years, and that is FAR from what we are hearing. We can't produce enough to keep it on the shelves. Now what I can say that we do see is that - the big wineries (the big 3 in the valley) make money, the little guys make money, but the middle quantity guys struggle. This is like any business, at some point you get bigger, but are you actually making a profit? There is a magic number (and before you ask no I don't know it).

The other thing we see alot of was non winemakers/growers coming into the valley, buying the land and building a winery with the idea that they will sit back sip wine from the barrels and entertain their friends, while they sit out and watch the view.... That is far far from the truth... Owners are having to be elbows deep in the dirt, barrels, stems and skins.... And when they arent cleaning (which is a huge part of a winery) they are dealing with Canadian regulatory bodies -- that favor international wineries. It is not the glamourous lifestyle that the movies lead people to believe. Nor is it the retirement package that they believe it is.

Two wineries listed on castanet "news" doesn't make for an industry in failure. What I am lost on is why these even made the news?

I am in total agreement with the above. Putting a farm or business up for sale is no indication of failure unless it is through foreclosure or other forced sale.

Ever heard of just good old profit taking? If their plans have changed or they have the sense that they can do well by selling, all the more power to them.

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Re: Another winery bites the dust

Postby Queen K » Jan 14th, 2018, 6:54 am

Oh no LANDM, they're getting what they "deserve" stick to the neggy narrative [icon_lol2.gif]
Our saddest days are when we add up our losses, and losses seem to be our saddest when we lose our best. Proud to be a "Leaf-licker" and I know who else is too. **smiles**

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Re: Another winery bites the dust

Postby Jhunter199 » Jan 14th, 2018, 10:35 am

Anyone ever consider that since they bought this in 2003 and built a business on it which was built and run for 15 years...
They both use to have very successful careers in Architecture and Marketing. Maybe now they are deciding that its time to sell in this time of smoking hot market prices and take their hard-earned profits and enjoy retirement?

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Re: Another winery bites the dust

Postby Cactusflower » Jan 14th, 2018, 11:53 am

Jhunter199 wrote:Anyone ever consider that since they bought this in 2003 and built a business on it which was built and run for 15 years...
They both use to have very successful careers in Architecture and Marketing. Maybe now they are deciding that its time to sell in this time of smoking hot market prices and take their hard-earned profits and enjoy retirement?


I guess we'll never know, unless we have access to their financial statements and income tax returns since 2003. How much did they pay for the peach and apricot orchard? Was it a viable business? When did it stop being a viable business? Or was it still a viable business when they decided to tear out the fruit trees and plant grape vines? We know that there are a number of years between planting and actually having a profitable wine business. They had their grand opening in 2013, just four years of production before they put the business up for sale. Unless we're interested buyers, we'll never know why they put it up for sale, so any further discussion along that line is pointless.

Since I find it repugnant that so many orchardists jumped on the wine bandwagon, I'm only interested in how many more wineries will be put up for sale in the near future, and how many vintners are going to become orchardists again. I'd be much happier to see Okanagan youngsters carrying fresh fruit in their lunch buckets rather than a Thermos of wine.
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Re: Another winery bites the dust

Postby LTD » Jan 14th, 2018, 12:00 pm

well I guess if orchardists could actually make money growing fruit you wouldn't see them removing trees in favor of vines until then you go with what pays the best

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Re: Another winery bites the dust

Postby Queen K » Jan 14th, 2018, 12:04 pm

LTD, please stop making sense!

Cactusflower wrote:I guess we'll never know, unless we have access to their financial statements and income tax returns since 2003. How much did they pay for the peach and apricot orchard? Was it a viable business? When did it stop being a viable business? Or was it still a viable business when they decided to tear out the fruit trees and plant grape vines? We know that there are a number of years between planting and actually having a profitable wine business. They had their grand opening in 2013, just four years of production before they put the business up for sale. Unless we're interested buyers, we'll never know why they put it up for sale, so any further discussion along that line is pointless.

Since I find it repugnant that so many orchardists jumped on the wine bandwagon, I'm only interested in how many more wineries will be put up for sale in the near future, and how many vintners are going to become orchardists again.[b] I'd be much happier to see Okanagan youngsters carrying fresh fruit in their lunch buckets rather than a Thermos of wine[/b].


Repugnant? Seriously? :135:

That so many entrepreneurial types did their homework, weighed trends and forecast the markets?

As for the last sentence, it's difficult to know where to begin with that one.

As do we?
Isn't it up to the parents?
What are you talking about :135: a "thermos of wine" in schools?
Lunch bucket? It's not 1930 anymore.
Our saddest days are when we add up our losses, and losses seem to be our saddest when we lose our best. Proud to be a "Leaf-licker" and I know who else is too. **smiles**

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Re: Another winery bites the dust

Postby LTD » Jan 14th, 2018, 12:38 pm

MMMMM thermos of wine

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Re: Another winery bites the dust

Postby LANDM » Jan 14th, 2018, 1:40 pm

Cactusflower wrote:Unless we're interested buyers, we'll never know why they put it up for sale, so any further discussion along that line is pointless.

Since I find it repugnant that so many orchardists jumped on the wine bandwagon, I'm only interested in how many more wineries will be put up for sale in the near future, and how many vintners are going to become orchardists again. I'd be much happier to see Okanagan youngsters carrying fresh fruit in their lunch buckets rather than a Thermos of wine.


And yet you continue to discuss why and claim that they must be losing money.

I can easily assume that you have never been involved in fruit production or any time of farming.
Do you ever notice how many orchards are on the market at any time. Vast multiples of vineyards and wineries.

Some people have no clue. About anything. :135:

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Re: Another winery bites the dust

Postby Jhunter199 » Jan 14th, 2018, 2:38 pm

The Okanagan has many houses for sale at the moment too, perhaps all those families are losing money... or they are selling for a profit and moving on to something else.
2 small family wineries for sale out of the 500+ in the okanagan valley is hardly a cause for panic.

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Re: Another winery bites the dust

Postby Fancy » Jan 14th, 2018, 4:23 pm

Cactusflower wrote:Read the story. They didn't just 'fall on hard times'.

So now they are on "hard times"?

Montakarn Estate Winery on Black Sage Rd. in Oliver was recently listed for $2.9M by Re/Max.

The winery held its grand opening in 2013. Gary and Monty Mission have owned the property since 2003, converting it from a peach and apricot orchard into a vineyard, according to its website.

The 4,600 sq ft winery building comes with seven acres of grapes including; Merlot, Chardonnay, Malbec, Cabernet Franc, Syrah, Viognier and Sauvignon Blanc.

It also features a home and separate pickers cabins.
Doesn't indicate anything like this in the story.
Fancy this, Fancy that and by the way, T*t for Tat

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Re: Another winery bites the dust

Postby Fancy » Jan 14th, 2018, 4:24 pm

Cactusflower wrote: Would you buy this vineyard now? Anyone with a lick of business sense wouldn't.
Yet that has happened with other wineries.

Cactusflower wrote: When did it stop being a viable business?

What makes you think it wasn't a viable business?
Fancy this, Fancy that and by the way, T*t for Tat

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Re: Another winery bites the dust

Postby Cactusflower » Jan 14th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Fancy wrote:
Cactusflower wrote: Would you buy this vineyard now? Anyone with a lick of business sense wouldn't.
Yet that has happened with other wineries.

Cactusflower wrote: When did it stop being a viable business?

What makes you think it wasn't a viable business?


Please stop cherry-picking (pun intended) quotes from my comments. Here is what I wrote:
"Was it a viable business? When did it stop being a viable business? Or was it still a viable business when they decided to tear out the fruit trees and plant grape vines?"

Here's something else you misquoted. When I wrote that these people may not have fallen on hard times, you assumed I meant they DID fall on hard times. It appears that reading is not the strong suit of some members here. I'm not going to bother pointing out the rest of the cherry-picked quotes, but I'll leave you with this:
I grew up on a BC orchard. My parents made a living selling cherries and apples. I picked cherries every summer and apples each fall. I still pick fruit, but now I belong to a group of volunteer gleaners. We give the fruit we pick to soup kitchens, food banks, seniors residences and schools, etc. Most of the fruit we pick are from backyard trees belonging to people who cannot use everything their trees yield. Some is from orchards that are transitioning to organic farming and can't sell their fruit to the packing houses because the trees haven't been sprayed, and they can't sell the fruit as organic until they've been spray-free for a couple of seasons.

Is there anything else you don't understand?

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