Is solar a good option?

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Re: Is solar a good option?

Postby maple leaf » Jan 29th, 2016, 3:07 pm

A lot of maybe's there Smurf. Maybe ,but maybe not.I have still not come across anything independent of BC Hydro or Government that would support a naysayer, but tones of info to the contrary.
I do respect your opinion though Smurf ,
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Re: Is solar a good option?

Postby Donald G » Jan 29th, 2016, 3:26 pm

by maple leaf » 9 minutes ago

A lot of maybe's there Smurf. Maybe ,but maybe not.I have still not come across anything independent of BC Hydro or Government that would support a naysayer, but tones of info to the contrary.

The latest complete Joint Review Panel report from 2013 ...

https://www.ceaa-acee.gc.ca/050/documen ... 99174E.pdf
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Re: Is solar a good option?

Postby maple leaf » Jan 29th, 2016, 4:02 pm

Donald G wrote:
The latest complete Joint Review Panel report from 2013 ...

https://www.ceaa-acee.gc.ca/050/documen ... 99174E.pdf


Thanks for posting that ,but my question was where is the independent from government or BC hydro information ,numbers, that support the argument that geothermal is not a viable alternative?

But since you posted that report you can see that there where 40 some odd recommendations for BC hydro to undertake.Where is the follow up to any of those recommendations?Instead the government circumvented the process and is bypassing any further review ,from the BCUC .Things have changed some since 2013.Unless you can find something that shows how those recommendations have been dealt with.
Here are a couple interesting ones.

Research
The Panel concludes that a failure to pursue research over the last 30 years into B.C.’s geothermal resources has left BC Hydro without information about a resource that BC Hydro thinks may offer up to 700 megawatts of firm, economic power with low environmental costs. What have they done since ,nobody knows.
The Panel concludes that analytic efforts to quantify the potential benefits of geographic diversity and climate-induced changes to hydrology could allow a better characterization of important resources.

Policy Constraints on Supply
The Panel concludes that, under the Low Liquefied Natural Gas case, available resources could provide adequate energy and capacity until at least 2028.


The Panel concludes that the Proponent has not fully demonstrated the need for the Project on the timetable set forth.
RECOMMENDATION 49

The Panel recommends that, if Ministers are inclined to proceed, they may wish to consider referring the load forecast and demand side management plan details to the BC Utilities Commission.
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Re: Is solar a good option?

Postby Smurf » Jan 29th, 2016, 4:48 pm

Most of those recommendations sound reasonable. I have no idea where most of them stand at this time. They say "may wish to refer it to the BCUC". I suppose the way things are going it means the decision has been made not to. That along with the fact that the BCUC previously said they approved it and Hydro could decide on the timing means it's a go.

I agree I used a high number of maybe's but that is because I could not see anything to tell me why things are happening the way they are. I have no idea what Hydro's reasons are or even if they are good or bad. As I said what I see there is a salesman and a customer that for some reason is not interested in their product.

I also value your opinion maple leaf but I guess having worked on a few of these projects and seeing the positive outcome of all of them I tend to believe they have done the proper research and planning. Just my personal feelings, right or wrong.
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Re: Is solar a good option?

Postby I Think » Jan 30th, 2016, 9:27 am

There are a few geo thermal sites in the US they are all located where there is a large supply of very hot water near the surface.

IMO the future for the world's elec is PV (solar). But Canada will be importing the power.
Solar panels are already a commodity, which means that the price of panels will not fall much lower. The areas forreal savings are in the inverters and other electronics related to the panels.
imo PV Paints, roof shingles etc are interesting but have little future in the real world.
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Re: Is solar a good option?

Postby maple leaf » Feb 1st, 2016, 4:08 pm

I Think wrote:imo PV Paints, roof shingles etc are interesting but have little future in the real world.


Things like paint just needs someone to work out the how.Roof shingles would be the easiest thing to do,the whole house roof could be covered and kill two birds with one stone.I'm not saying it will happen next week ,but down the road ,good possibility.
But I just ran across this article;

This Solar Road Will Provide Power to 5 Million People

Lorraine Chow | February 1, 2016 11:23 am | Comments
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The French government plans to pave 1,000 kilometers (621 miles) of its roads with solar panels in the next five years, which will supply power to millions of people.

“The maximum effect of the program, if successful, could be to furnish 5 million people with electricity, or about 8 percent of the French population,” Ségolène Royal, France’s minister of ecology and energy, said according to Global Construction Review.


France’s Agency of Environment and Energy Management said that 4 meters (14 feet) of solarized road would be enough to supply the electrical needs of one household, excluding heat. One kilometer (0.62 miles) will supply enough electricity for 5,000 residents.

The project is the result of five years of research between French road construction company Colas and the French National Institute of Solar Energy.

The project, “Wattway,” was introduced last October. The technology consists of extremely thin (7 millimeters) yet durable panels of polycrystalline silicon that can transform solar energy into electricity. The panels are also said to be 15 centimeters wide and heavy-duty skid resistant to reduce auto accidents.

“These extremely fragile photovoltaic cells are coated in a multilayer substrate composed of resins and polymers, translucent enough to allow sunlight to pass through, and resistant enough to withstand truck traffic,” Colas said in a press release.


The panels are rainproof and have passed snowplow tests “with flying colors,” according to the Wattway FAQ page. The company also boasts that their panels can last as long as conventional pavement, or 10 years depending on the traffic. Wattway panels can last roughly 20 years if the section is not heavily trafficked, such as stadium parking lot.

In terms of efficiency, Wattway said its panels have a 15 percent yield, compared to 18-19 percent for conventional photovoltaic panels.

The solar roads concept isn’t new. SolaRoad, the world’s first “solar road,” has been in operation in the Netherlands since November 2014, but it’s already generating more power than expected. EcoWatch has also featured a similar Idaho-based project, Solar Roadways, whose Indiegogo campaign became extremely successful when their video went viral last year.

Although there are detractors, solar roadways have been touted as an excellent way to harness the sun’s energy. “Roads spend 90 percent of their time just looking up into the sky. When the sun shines, they are of course exposed to its rays,” Jean-Lic Gautier, manager of the Center for Expertise at the Colas Campus for Science and Techniques, said in a press release. “It’s an ideal surface area for energy applications.”

The panels will be applied directly to existing roads in France. “There is no need to rebuild infrastructure,” Colas CEO Hervé Le Bouc told Les Echoes last year. “At Chambéry and Grenoble, was tested successfully on Wattway a cycle of 1 million vehicles, or 20 years of normal traffic a road, and the surface does not move.”
Minister Royal said installation of the panels will begin this spring and proposes to pay for them by raising taxes on fossil fuels, Gas2.org reported.

She said it was “natural” to raise taxes on fossil fuels given that the cost of oil is currently so low, adding that new taxes would contribute between 200-300 million Euros ($220-440 million) to the Positive Energy initiative.

Learn more about the solar road project in this video:
http://ecowatch.com/2016/02/01/wattway-solar-road/
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Re: Is solar a good option?

Postby Donald G » Feb 1st, 2016, 4:19 pm

by maple leaf » 1 minute ago

Things like paint just needs someone to work out the how.Roof shingles would be the easiest thing to do,the whole house roof could be covered and kill two birds with one stone.I'm not saying it will happen next week ,but down the road ,good possibility.
But I just ran across this article;


Sounds like something that France, with few inexpensive hydro electric possibilities, might want to look at down the road. As for Canada, even if the technology someday proves out, the cumulative costs per Kwh would have to be lower than present to make it worth looking at for Canada and the lack of sun in Canada would still be a limiting problem.
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Re: Is solar a good option?

Postby Smurf » Feb 2nd, 2016, 7:00 am

Those roadways sound good in theory but I have to wonder about real life. Parking lots might be a possibility.

and the surface does not move.

That can't be said about most roads in Canada. What about potholes in the road underneath. A few things like that, that come to mind bother me.

She said it was “natural” to raise taxes on fossil fuels given that the cost of oil is currently so low, adding that new taxes would contribute between 200-300 million Euros ($220-440 million) to the Positive Energy initiative


Sounds to me like it is going to be expensive. Wonder if the panels actually pay for themselves over time. I would how our sunless BC winters in the Okanagan and snow on the roads in most of Canada would affect them. I would think that we would have to have reliable backup power available at all times. Time will tell.
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Re: Is solar a good option?

Postby maple leaf » Feb 2nd, 2016, 9:34 am

Smurf, at some point a theory needs to be tested ,so yes time will tell. This is good news as the industry can learn from this application for further down the road,( no pun intended). If they can pass snowplow test in France why not in Canada,maybe not every square mile in Canada ,but.
The panels are rainproof and have passed snowplow tests “with flying colors,” according to the Wattway FAQ page. The company also boasts that their panels can last as long as conventional pavement, or 10 years depending on the traffic. Waterway panels can last roughly 20 years if the section is not heavily trafficked, such as stadium parking lot.


If they can make a roadway out of solar cells ,they surly can make roof shingles.No matter what ,when a new idea comes along ,there are going to be trials and problems that come up,but those things generally are worked out.Guess I'm a glass is half full instead of a glass half empty type person.
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Re: Is solar a good option?

Postby Donald G » Feb 2nd, 2016, 10:50 am

by maple leaf » Today, 9:34 am

Smurf, at some point a theory needs to be tested ,so yes time will tell. This is good news as the industry can learn from this application for further down the road,( no pun intended). If they can pass snowplow test in France why not in Canada,maybe not every square mile in Canada ,but.
The panels are rainproof and have passed snowplow tests “with flying colors,” according to the Wattway FAQ page. The company also boasts that their panels can last as long as conventional pavement, or 10 years depending on the traffic. Waterway panels can last roughly 20 years if the section is not heavily trafficked, such as stadium parking lot.


If they can make a roadway out of solar cells ,they surly can make roof shingles.No matter what ,when a new idea comes along ,there are going to be trials and problems that come up,but those things generally are worked out.Guess I'm a glass is half full instead of a glass half empty type person.


I assume that you realize that the information you are giving is information put out solely by the company trying to sell the road covering do you ?? I would divide the time period in half and then divide that answer by two and find out the cost of removing the old surface and reinstalling the new solar cell surface before voicing an opinion since the system has never been tested in real life.
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Re: Is solar a good option?

Postby maple leaf » Feb 2nd, 2016, 11:07 am

Donald G wrote:I assume that you realize that the information you are giving is information put out solely by the company trying to sell the road covering do you ?? I would divide the time period in half and then divide that answer by two and find out the cost of removing the old surface and reinstalling the new solar cell surface before voicing an opinion since the system has never been tested in real life.


Donald ,you are making far to much out of this than need be.No one is selling anything .It is just an article about and idea that the French Government is testing out.
It is interesting to me because of the technology advancements, to be able to do such a thing.If it is successful,great ,if not ,I'm sure the industry will learn from it.

From the article.
“The maximum effect of the program, if successful,
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Re: Is solar a good option?

Postby Smurf » Feb 2nd, 2016, 3:04 pm

Maple Leaf I hope you are right. I would love to see some of these technologies and how they can possibly work for us. However at this time I see the hundred mile carburetors from a few decades ago. I have seen so many of these things come and go, that I am very sceptical. I remember in the 60's testing out solar heat with my father in law. It looked very promising but really has not gone that far. I helped set up a closed circuit system that heated the water in a house, then went on to heat the indoor pool. It worked quite well but such things have never really taken off, for any number of reasons. That does not mean we should stop trying, but I no longer get excited about most new ideas as very often it is only the ones trying to sell them that ever get excited about them.
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Re: Is solar a good option?

Postby maple leaf » Feb 2nd, 2016, 6:28 pm

Smurf wrote:Maple Leaf I hope you are right. I would love to see some of these technologies and how they can possibly work for us. However at this time I see the hundred mile carburetors from a few decades ago. I have seen so many of these things come and go, that I am very sceptical. I remember in the 60's testing out solar heat with my father in law. It looked very promising but really has not gone that far. I helped set up a closed circuit system that heated the water in a house, then went on to heat the indoor pool. It worked quite well but such things have never really taken off, for any number of reasons. That does not mean we should stop trying, but I no longer get excited about most new ideas as very often it is only the ones trying to sell them that ever get excited about them.



I have also seen many things come and go,I also remember the 60's and helping a friend with a bright idea to put pipping in the concrete floor to run hot water through from the wood stove.It didn't work as either the pipe collapsed or came apart ,as for some reason the water didn't circulate.I bet companies along the way are glad they didn't pay any attention to the sceptics and today are making millions out of in floor radiant heating ,which is done all the time these days.It just took working it out to work.I'm not going to go sink my life savings into solar,but I find it interesting to see some things come to fruition.
If it is just about a sales pitch,that company must have a very good sales man to have the French Government willing to get on board with that project.SolaRoad, the world’s first “solar road,” has been in operation in the Netherlands since November 2014, but it’s already generating more power than expected.So things can only improve as things move ahead.
Do me a favour though,and in 15 or so years when these thing are the norm,think of that ML guy that posted about it on Castanet. :1422:
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Re: Is solar a good option?

Postby Smurf » Feb 3rd, 2016, 7:57 am

If I'm still around with a memory I will hopefully remember. I am always hopeful these things will turn out but have found that our harsh climates in Canada are a problem for most of them. I love solar. I watch it grow in Yuma and the surrounding area but the circumstances from need to compatibility are so different. I have seen huge wind farms, but again need is a huge push behind them. Canada does not have that same need as much of the rest of the world due to our readily available hydro power. They have to be a viable alternative which is the case in many places, not so much in Canada due to our circumstances. I would even have to take a long look at solar shingles as to lifespan, cost etc.. I'm not negative to these things, I just like to actually see the positive and negative before I get excited. To me our current low cost, low impact power is a strong positive that I don't want to ruin with any more off the wall alternatives like the IPP's.
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Re: Is solar a good option?

Postby I Think » Feb 3rd, 2016, 8:09 am

The problem with things like PV paint and shingles is that PV panels are selling for less than $1.00/watt, so why spend money on developing alternates?
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