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John 4:20

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Re: John 4:20

Postby sophiexfox » Nov 21st, 2012, 11:27 pm

Glacier wrote:
sophiexfox wrote:If every religious person in this world where Christ-like and not just 'Christians' we would be in a much better place then we are now.

Amen to that!

Not sure what you are talking about "an evil statement" though. Like all commandments, John 4:20 is, of course, neglected by some. All I was trying to say is that the "God Hates Fags" types are a minority, and I don't believe in targeting everyone with the same brush.


I think you are being too generous.

Of course all Muslims are evil, women-abusing, child-rapists...
But only 'some' Christians are hateful. To you the are only a 'minority'

Such an unfair statement!

And from my experience you're wrong, its not just a minority....
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Re: John 4:20

Postby Glacier » Nov 22nd, 2012, 12:49 am

sophiexfox wrote:Such an unfair statement!

True, which is why I never said that. Not sure where you got that idea from.

You are free to believe that the majority of Christians agree with the West Boro Baptists, but I disagree. You and Thinktank must hang out with some pretty crazy Christians though because the ones I know shake their heads when they mention the West Boro gang.
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Re: John 4:20

Postby Hmmm » Nov 22nd, 2012, 7:12 pm

its funny how some people post about love and then write hateful attacks, one after the other. Some people have real issues.
I thought you said your dog doesn't bite....That's not my dog.
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Re: John 4:20

Postby ukcanuck » Nov 22nd, 2012, 9:29 pm

Hmmm']
Amos 15:5“Hate what is bad and love what is good, and establish what is just among you.” This verse helps us to appreciate, its the behavior that is to be hated and not the person. God does in fact love everyone but does not love everyone's actions.[/quote]



[quote="sophiefox wrote:
Get the **** out of here with that.
Every single time I quote the old testament to prove a point against your religion, I get yelled 'BUT THAT'S THE OLD TESTAMENT - THAT DOESN'T MATTER'
Even though it's clearly a flawed and ignorant retort, I am going to have to fire this one back at you guys.

Afterall; The line I am referring is red words from Jesus himself!!

Far more important then ramblings from the same series of books that brought us brilliant stories from 'god' such as the one about the 40 some-odd children being brutally massacred by a bear for them mocking a bald prophet.


I'm confused by this exchange, seems a little testy to me for a religious discussion... are we actually arguing the old versus the new testament?

or am I missing something?
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Re: John 4:20

Postby Hmmm » Nov 22nd, 2012, 10:34 pm

ukcanuck wrote:
I'm confused by this exchange, seems a little testy to me for a religious discussion... are we actually arguing the old versus the new testament?

or am I missing something?


I wasn't arguing at all, I was quoting a scripture that points put the bad actions is what is hated not the person. This is in harmony with John 4:20. The OP seems to think hating the actions is the same as hating the person, which as was pointed out, Jesus clearly stated we should love. I agree with what Jesus said.

The OP for some strange reason attacked me.
I thought you said your dog doesn't bite....That's not my dog.
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Re: John 4:20

Postby averagejoe » Nov 22nd, 2012, 11:31 pm

Hmmm wrote: Jesus clearly stated we should love.

He also said a lot more than that verse? You seem to live on one verse continually from the Bible. You should read more.

This what Jesus's father had to say....

You are my battle ax and weapons of war: for with you will I break in pieces the nations, and with you will I destroy kingdoms.

Doesn't sound like a religion of love to me?
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Re: John 4:20

Postby cliffy1 » Nov 22nd, 2012, 11:40 pm

Some people think that all Christians are radical nut jobs like the West Boro gang, sorta like how some think all Muslims are terrorists. The reason is simple, the lunatic fringe make the most noise.
Also, some seem to think the moderate Muslims should speak up against the radical fundamentalists Muslims and some wonder why moderate Christians don't make a bigger noise condemning the radical fundamentalist Christians.

Both groups worship the same god. I can't figure out why each side condemns the other. Usually, behind anger is fear. What are these two groups afraid of if god is supposed to be on their side? Sounds to like a case of lack of faith on both sides.
Trying to get spiritual nourishment from a two thousand year old book is like trying to suck milk from the breast of a woman who has been dead that long.
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Re: John 4:20

Postby Glacier » Nov 23rd, 2012, 1:20 am

The problem with the loony left/conspiracy theorist crowd (both the religious and non-religious) is that they often struggle to decipher good evidence from bad and to weigh moral equivalence.

This is no equivalence between Islam and Christianity (see the comparison here). Indeed, there is no equivalence between Islam and Judaism, nor equivalence between Islam and Buddhism, etc. Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. are religions, whereas Islam is a political ideology much like Communism and Fascism are political ideologies.

Now many Muslims do practice their religion in peace (and good for them), but a significant and increasing percentage of Muslims are practicing political Islam. The Muslim Brotherhood and other such terrorist groups have been on the rise in the MIddle East over the past 20 years. Many Muslims who have left the Middle East are shocked when they go back as to how radical it is becoming.

Nonie Darwish, author of Now they Call Me the Infidel, recounts how she was shocked visiting her home country of Egypt 20 years after leaving. When she left it was a moderate Muslim country where very few women wore veils, but on her return trip, the Burka has become widespread, and even her formally liberal childhood friends scolded her for not joining them in wearing the Burka. She goes on to tell of how she attended a Mosque in the U.S. and will never go back because they are more radical and hateful towards America and the West than any they had in Egypt. They left long before the sermon was over in disgust. The reason this is the case is because Saudi Arabia is funding Western Mosques, and installing their own Wahabi Emams.

The goal of is Islam is political - to take over the world by force and kill all the Jews. Darwish talks about how there is just as much political radicalism within the large percentage of non-practicing Muslims in Egypt and the devoutly religious Muslims. This is why it's not just Christians who Only 12% of Muslims in Germany feel more loyal to Germany than to their Nation of birth, and why many Muslims have stated that their goal is to take over Europe, and pay Europe back for their shameful defeat in Vienna on September 11th (or 12th), 1683, when they last tried to take over Europe. It is also why 80% rapes in Scandinavian countries are done by Muslim men (it's okay to rape the women of infidels), and is largely why rapes in Sweden of girls 15 years old and younger has gone up 600% in the past couple of decades. If Christianity and Islam were morally equal, then we would not see such startling spikes in crime as the population becomes less Christian and more Islamic. As Geert Wilders points out in his book Marked for Death, cultural relativism is a lie because all cultures are not equal.
Last edited by Glacier on Nov 23rd, 2012, 1:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: John 4:20

Postby ukcanuck » Nov 23rd, 2012, 1:32 am

Glacier wrote:The problem with the loony left/conspiracy theorist crowd (both the religious and non-religious) is that they often struggle to decipher good evidence from bad and to weigh moral equivalence.

This is no equivalence between Islam and Christianity (see the comparison here). Indeed, there is no equivalence between Islam and Judaism, nor equivalence between Islam and Buddhism, etc. Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. are religions, whereas Islam is a political ideology much like Communism and Fascism are political ideologies.

Now many Muslims do practice their religion in peace (and good for them), but a significant and increasing percentage of Muslims are practicing political Islam. The Muslim Brotherhood and other such terrorist groups have been on the rise in the MIddle East over the past 20 years. Many Muslims who have left the Middle East are shocked when they go back as to how radical it is becoming.

Nonie Darwish, author of Now they Call Me the Infidel, recounts how she was shocked visiting her home country of Egypt 20 years after leaving. When she left it was a moderate Muslim country where very few women wore veils, but on her return trip, the Burka has become widespread, and even her formally liberal childhood friends scolded her for not joining them in wearing the Burka. She goes on to tell of how she attended a Mosque in the U.S. and will never go back because they are more radical and hateful towards America and the West than any they had in Egypt. They left long before the sermon was over in disgust. The reason this is the case is because Saudi Arabia is funding Western Mosques, and installing their own Wahabi Emams.

The goal of is Islam is political - to take over the world and kill all the Jews. Darwish talks about how there is just as much political radicalism within the large percentage of non-practicing Muslims in Egypt and the devoutly religious Muslims. This is why it's not just Christians who Only 12% of Muslims in Germany feel more loyal to Germany than to their Nation of birth, and why many Muslims have stated that their goal is to take over Europe, and pay Europe back for their shameful defeat in Vienna on September 11th, 1683. It is also why 80% rapes in Scandinavian countries are done by Muslim men (it's okay to rape the women of infidels), and is largely why rapes in Sweden of girls 15 years old and younger has gone up 600% in the past couple of decades. If Christianity and Islam were morally equivalent, then we would not see such startling spikes in crime as the population becomes less Christian and more Islamic. As Geert Wilders points out in his book [i]Marked for Death[/i], cultural relativism is a lie because all cultures are not equal.

i have to ask, do you know any muslims? have you spent any time with people who believe in Islam? because it doesn't sound like you know anything about Islam other than what you have read in a book. If so you should realise how easy it is to take stuff out of context and look like a fool...
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Re: John 4:20

Postby Glacier » Nov 23rd, 2012, 2:03 am

I've known a few Muslims. To be clear though, I have nothing against Muslims, it's Islam that's the problem. We can go bury our heads in the sand all you want, but statistics don't lie. 600% increase in rape is not something to sweep under the rug (imo).

Books are the best source of knowledge. I recommend you give it a try. One of my favourite writers, Leeland Stowe, wrote his first book in 1933 called "Nazi Germany Means War." He could see the hate and antisemitism before the rest of the world noticed. As a matter of fact, his writings were censored, so he published them in book form to get around the newspaper nixing his writings for being "too alarmist." Many knowledgeable writers today be they atheists, Christians, or Muslims have made eerily similar comparisons between political Islam and the Nazi regime.

If you think I'm taking things out of context, feel free to correct me. Here are a couple of famous quotes you have no doubt heard before. Do you think they should be brushed aside like Hitler's quotes that went ignored in the 1930s?

    “The Koran is our constitution, the Prophet is our leader, jihad is our path and death in the name of Allah is our goal."

    "We have 50 million Muslims in Europe. There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe—without swords, without guns, without conquest—will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades."


Sorry, I'm off topic here. I will start a different thread in a few days. good night. :sleepdeprived:
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Re: John 4:20

Postby ukcanuck » Nov 23rd, 2012, 10:23 am

Glacier wrote:I've known a few Muslims. To be clear though, I have nothing against Muslims, it's Islam that's the problem.

They must be real proud of you talking about them like that. Is it me or does that sentence sound a lot like " I don't hate gays, some of my friends are gay?



We can go bury our heads in the sand all you want, but statistics don't lie. 600% increase in rape is not something to sweep under the rug (imo).

Please, stats can and often do lie, you can't quote something like that and try to think its even remotely believable. Plucking percentages like that out of context means nothing and looks a lot like the sky is falling


Books are the best source of knowledge.

Mein Kampf ?

I recommend you give it a try. One of my favourite writers, Leeland Stowe, wrote his first book in 1933 called "Nazi Germany Means War." He could see the hate and antisemitism before the rest of the world noticed.

That's interesting because I was just thinking how much your post looks like nazi antisemitism. it has that se pious zealot ring to it...


As a matter of fact, his writings were censored, so he published them in book form to get around the newspaper nixing his writings for being "too alarmist." Many knowledgeable writers today be they atheists, Christians, or Muslims have made eerily similar comparisons between political Islam and the Nazi regime.


I'm assuming that you are referring to the similarities between totalitarian regimes whether they be religious based or politically based they are all built on fanaticism.
Islam is not alone in having been used as a back drop for insanity or are you forgetting 2000 years of Christian brutality all over the earth.
Should we throw the baby out with the bath water?

If you think I'm taking things out of context, feel free to correct me.

I think you are blinded by fear, if you believe that Christ is there for you, it doesn't matter how many evil people there are in the world. God has his plan who are you to explain it to Muslims? Let them work out their own truth, they might teach you something you never know...

Here are a couple of famous quotes you have no doubt heard before. Do you think they should be brushed aside like Hitler's quotes that went ignored in the 1930s?

    “The Koran is our constitution, the Prophet is our leader, jihad is our path and death in the name of Allah is our goal."

    "We have 50 million Muslims in Europe. There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe—without swords, without guns, without conquest—will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades."

I don't have to show you know you are talking things out of context
Here are two examples , I could quote biblical scripture and make it look evil plucked out like your quotes. Who said them, when were they said? Under what circumstances?
If I'm angry at you and say " I'm gonna kill you" does that make me a murderer?


Sorry, I'm off topic here. I will start a different thread in a few days. good night. :sleepdeprived:

I'd advise not to bother starting a thread against a major world religion... No good is going to come from it...
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Re: John 4:20

Postby hobbyguy » Nov 23rd, 2012, 11:43 am

Looks all muddled up to me.

Every religion has its good points, which are those parts related to spirituality. My observation is that every religion has been perverted for political ends, and that perversion is rooted in dogma and someone else telling you how to think and act.

Theocracy is the end goal of dogma and theocracy is tyrannical by nature.

I have yet to see an example of theocracy that is not antithetical to the spiritual elements contained within a given religion.

This makes me support Glacier's view that the current iteration of Islamist fundamentalists are extremely dangerous. I cast a similar skeptical eye on the Christian fundamentalist movement.

Tolerance is a virtue, but we need to be aware that dogma and political control are antitheical to tolerance and the virtuous cores of all religions.
We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: John 4:20

Postby ukcanuck » Nov 23rd, 2012, 12:49 pm

hobbyguy wrote:Looks all muddled up to me.

Every religion has its good points, which are those parts related to spirituality. My observation is that every religion has been perverted for political ends, and that perversion is rooted in dogma and someone else telling you how to think and act.

Theocracy is the end goal of dogma and theocracy is tyrannical by nature.

I have yet to see an example of theocracy that is not antithetical to the spiritual elements contained within a given religion.

This makes me support Glacier's view that the current iteration of Islamist fundamentalists are extremely dangerous. I cast a similar skeptical eye on the Christian fundamentalist movement.

Tolerance is a virtue, but we need to be aware that dogma and political control are antitheical to tolerance and the virtuous cores of all religions.


I can tell you that I have lived and worked as a Christian in a devout islamic community in London England for the last 3 years and I have witnessed none of the fundamentalism that Glacier is worried about. it's just simply not true that belief in Islam or that Mohammed is the prophet leads anyone to radical actions as rape or wanting to blow up the world.

Those actions have nothing to do with any of the faiths we as human beings hold dear.

The teachings of the Koran absolutely do not preach holy wars or intifadas anymore than the bible directs us to round up gays and kill them. Although it does say in the Old Testament that man shall not lay down with man and that an eye for an eye is justifiable... Mistakes in meaning and intent in the bible are common enough just as they are with any written word.

its a common claim that more blood has been spilled over religion but I think it's more blod has been spilled over Ignorance
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Re: John 4:20

Postby sophiexfox » Nov 23rd, 2012, 6:35 pm

What the hell guys... I leave for a day and come back to this...mess!
Hitler is a Muslim....WHAT?
I'm not even going to try -__-;;;;


ukcanuck wrote:its a common claim that more blood has been spilled over religion but I think it's more blod has been spilled over Ignorance


True. But would you agree that Religion encourages ignorance?


Lets use stem cell research as an example.
Religious 'morality' is the one and only argument against stem cell research.
To a point where funding was cut and the study of stem cells was made illegal in certain countries. Halting the progress of this modern science.
All because of a ridiculous religious belief, people would rather a fetus end up in a landfill then be put to good use. You know like helping /living/ people?
It doesn't make much sense to me. But then again not much religious folk believe in make much sense to me...


There may have been a time and a place religion. Back when humans were to stupid to understand killing each other is bad... But I'd like to think most of humanity as evolved passed that point. Clinging to ridiculous dark age beliefs is only detrimental to the advancement of our society.
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Re: John 4:20

Postby Glacier » Nov 23rd, 2012, 6:46 pm

HItler is a Muslim? Not sure what you're talking about.

Thank you, hobbyguy. You get it. Obviously not all Muslims are extremists, and even the ones that are still hold good human qualities such as generosity. The point is, pointing out the bad elements of Christianity, Islam, or communism is not hate. In my view, when 80% of rapes in Scandinavia are committed by Muslims, there is a problem. Obviously, not all Muslim men are rapists, but these statistics should raise alarm bells.
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