The Universe (and everything in it)

[steven lloyd]

I would be really interested in knowing what everyone thinks and believes about the following post. I expect that people’s responses will be based on their knowledge of science, their religious and/or spiritual beliefs, or some combination of both. This is not a thread about organized religion, but a thread to share your uniquely personal thoughts and beliefs for consideration by others and I would welcome contributions by atheists and non-atheists alike. I wouldn’t expect anyone’s belief system to radically change from reading what others think and believe, but for some of us there may be some evolution in thought by doing so. I am certainly looking forward to challenging my own belief system.

I would like to say that the debasement or ridicule of anyone’s belief system (atheist or non-atheist) will not be tolerated, but of course, only the moderators can enforce that. Anyways, ….


Some many millions of years (a real long time anyway) ago, this universe was created from an incredibly violent explosion. At least, that’s the most popular theory right now. From that explosion came the formation of an infinite (?) number of galaxies all (most?) containing thousands of solar systems, and within at least one we know of, a planet capable of supporting life as we know it. Not only did the explosion result in the formation of all the elements needed to create stars, planets, water, oxygen and other gases and matter, but from it also came the basic building block of what we call life, that is, DNA. Or not?

Was this event something caused by an all-powerful, infinite being that, whatever your belief and understanding we can call God? Or was this event a simple fluke and random chance occurrence that resulted in such incredible things? If so, what was here before the universe was created and where did that come from? And for that matter, if it was indeed God, where did He come from?

On that last note, the physicist Stephen Hawking provides one possible explanation. He has postulated that time itself did not exist until the “Big Bang” and has only existed from that moment. While Dr. Hawking does not personally believe in God, he has acknowledged his theory supports the idea that an infinite God could have always existed, exists now, and will always exist – even after this universe ceases to.

On this last note, many people assume the universe to be infinite but how can that be? Many scientists theorize that the universe is expanding and has been expanding ever since the explosion that created it. If this is true, then how can something that is expanding be infinite? If it is expanding it must then have some outward boundary, and this then begs the question – if the universe is not infinite and has an outward boundary then what is beyond that boundary?

Still entertaining the notion of an expanding universe, many scientists also say the universe will one day (hopefully a long way away) stop expanding and then start falling back in on itself (don’t think I want to be around to watch that) which, we would presume, very likely result in another catastrophic explosion. Maybe that’s what’s been going on. There is an explosion which creates an expanding universe that eventually stops expanding and then falls back in on itself resulting in a catastrophic explosion which again creates an expanding universe that eventually stops expanding and then falls back in on itself resulting in a catastrophic explosion which again creates an expanding universe that eventually stops expanding and then falls back in on itself resulting in a catastrophic explosion which again creates an expanding universe – okay, I’ll stop now. But if this is what is happening, then what is it happening in?

Then there’s the question of life, not just any form of life but intelligent, self-aware life, and whether or not it exists elsewhere in this universe. We know that the chances life exists at all are incredibly small given the harsh and violent nature of our universe, but small or not, here we are. If we assume the universe is infinite, then simple calculus tells us that the chance of intelligent, self-aware life existing somewhere else is actually a certainty. Probability is expressed as a number between 0.0 (0%) and 1.0 (100%), and using calculus, any number, no matter how small, when multiplied by infinity equals one. In other words, if we assume the universe to be infinite then there is a 100% probability that intelligent, self-aware life exists somewhere else in it. If we drop the assumption the universe is infinite, then we come back to the (possibly) even scarier question – what’s on the other side?

And what about alternative dimensions? I remember watching a science show once where these mathematicians and physicists were demonstrating experiments that provided evidence for the possibility of parallel universes, wormholes, etc. I wish I could remember enough to describe those experiments here, but maybe some other posters here are more familiar with this. I do remember thinking, “Man, these guys just got way too much time on their hands”. I do know, however, that I can’t just discard the idea of alternate, parallel universes existing in the same time and space. After all, radio frequencies do exactly the same thing.

So, here’s what I’d like to know. Do you believe the universe is infinite or not? If not, can you imagine or guess what might be outside it? Do you believe the universe (and everything in it) was created in some huge explosion just by simple fluke and random chance (I acknowledge that is possible no matter how unlikely) or was it created in some huge explosion with purpose behind its creation – and if so, who’s purpose? On that note, do you have any ideas as to what that purpose is? If it is God, do you believe He exists everywhere and always, or do you see God as finite in some way? If not God, then what?

[eyepop]

"...an explosion which creates an expanding universe that eventually stops expanding and then falls back in on itself resulting in a catastrophic explosion which again creates an expanding universe that eventually stops expanding and then falls back in on itself resulting in a catastrophic explosion which again creates an expanding universe that eventually stops expanding and then falls back in on itself resulting in a catastrophic explosion which again creates an expanding universe – okay, I’ll stop now. But if this is what is happening, then what is it happening in? ....."

[steven lloyd]

"...an explosion which creates an expanding universe that eventually stops expanding and then falls back in on itself resulting in a catastrophic explosion which again creates an expanding universe that eventually stops expanding and then falls back in on itself resulting in a catastrophic explosion which again creates an expanding universe that eventually stops expanding and then falls back in on itself resulting in a catastrophic explosion which again creates an expanding universe – okay, I’ll stop now. But if this is what is happening, then what is it happening in? ....."

LOLOLOL!!! Thanks, that's great. But on an ever so slightly serious note, on who's shelf then does it sit?

[katzenjammer]

Good questions all, Steven.

That is why we have theoretical physicists on the payroll. I have just been reading Hawking’s “The universe in a nutshell” and my wee brain is still reeling from trying to understand black holes, super strings, P-branes, quantum mechanics, 10- dimensional membranes, or indeed, 11-dimensional supergravity.

It’s much easier to just believe in God and be done with it.

[steven lloyd]

Good questions all, Steven.

That is why we have theoretical physicists on the payroll. I have just been reading Hawking’s “The universe in a nutshell” and my wee brain is still reeling from trying to understand black holes, super strings, P-branes, quantum mechanics, 10- dimensional membranes, or indeed, 11-dimensional supergravity.

It’s much easier to just believe in God and be done with it.

I’ve quoted Woodsworth before, but I truly believe in the veracity of his statement that “Education is the gradual process of discovering how much you don’t know”. It is my opinion that once you believe you do know, then you have simply lost the capacity to learn or discover. Even Hawking, who states he does not personally believe in God, also acknowledges that he might be wrong about this. Unlike the assertions made by at least one poster on this board, real scientists always at least entertain this notion (that they might be wrong).

I do personally believe in the existence of God, and I believe that God is responsible for the creation of the universe and everything in it. I have many reasons for believing in God (including some profound and personal experiences I will not share here), and the unanswerable questions I’ve asked here only reinforce that belief (the more I learn and discover about life and the universe the more amazed I am, and simply do not believe this is all a matter of fluke, random chance). I also believe that God has purpose for this creation but I will not presume to know what that purpose is. I had hoped more posters would have something to contribute here as I am really interested in considering ideas different than my own. I guess many posters are still not feeling too safe about sharing their beliefs on this board. That’s really too bad because there could be so much for all of us to learn.

[zzontar]

On that last note, the physicist Stephen Hawking provides one possible explanation. He has postulated that time itself did not exist until the “Big Bang” and has only existed from that moment. While Dr. Hawking does not personally believe in God, he has acknowledged his theory supports the idea that an infinite God could have always existed, exists now, and will always exist – even after this universe ceases to.

The problem I see with this theory is the time not existing... if time didn't move forward before the big bang, then how could the big bang have been triggered to begin with unless you're be dealing with timeless planes and dimensions, which I have a hard time fathoming as even a thought must take time.

I think the ever expanding/contracting universe is plausible... the same matter which has always existed, breathing in and out, a countless array of galaxies producing a countless ammount of variables with every breath.

To fathom that God has always existed would be similar to fathoming that all the elements of the universe have always existed, but how could there have been nothing? To imagine nothing is impossible, seeing as imagining is something... most might picture an empty area in space, but it is dark, cold, has a vacuum, and dimension... all of these are something, and we would have to exist to know there was nothing, which wouldn't work as we are something... I know, sounds like a lot of talk about nothing... sorry, had to throw that in.

[NAB]

If one can understand the concept of molecular and atomic theory on a descending scale (in terms of size) - why is it so difficult for some to understand it on an ascending scale (in terms of size)?

Nab

[steven lloyd]

On that last note, the physicist Stephen Hawking provides one possible explanation. He has postulated that time itself did not exist until the “Big Bang” and has only existed from that moment. While Dr. Hawking does not personally believe in God, he has acknowledged his theory supports the idea that an infinite God could have always existed, exists now, and will always exist – even after this universe ceases to.

The problem I see with this theory is the time not existing... if time didn't move forward before the big bang, then how could the big bang have been triggered to begin with unless you're be dealing with timeless planes and dimensions, which I have a hard time fathoming as even a thought must take time.

I once heard time described as “a concept made up by man to explain something he could not understand”. Most of us see time as a linear, or sequential thing, yet some physicists (having way too much time on their hands) have started to describe it as something that ultimately comes back on itself (via a flat plane and twisted figure eight type model) and suggest (in theory at least) it could be possible to exit or enter the plane at any given point and enter or exit the plane at another given point (via a wormhole or some other far-fetched – but not impossible mechanism). I’m not saying I can personally fathom timeless planes or dimensions either, only that I can accept there are truths beyond my own limited human understanding.

To answer your question “if time didn't move forward before the big bang, then how could the big bang have been triggered to begin with?”, I can only propose the answer would be the existence of God – an infinite (as per Dr. Steven Hawking), timeless and all-powerful entity responsible for the creation of everything. This concept of infinity (always has been, is now and always will be) puts our linear and sequential existence into a different kind of perspective, that at the very least should be humbling. You say even a thought must take time, but I have to assume of course that you are referring to a human thought and not the thought of God (assuming He exists). This, of course, is something way past human understanding and I personally believe it would be presumptuous of us to try and make any comparison in human terms.

[steven lloyd]

If one can understand the concept of molecular and atomic theory on a descending scale (in terms of size) - why is it so difficult for some to understand it on an ascending scale (in terms of size)?

Nab

Could you elaborate on that please Nabs?

[NAB]

If one can understand the concept of molecular and atomic theory on a descending scale (in terms of size) - why is it so difficult for some to understand it on an ascending scale (in terms of size)?

Nab

Could you elaborate on that please Nabs?

Picture the structure of a molecule Steven.

Then picture the structure of atoms that comprise that molecule

(Descending in size)

Then picture the structure of the universe..

(Ascending in size)

Edit to add: To me it is all very orderly, just a matter of different dimensions. And anything that exists within one dimension cannot possibly interact one on one with anything that exists in a higher or lower dimension.

Nab

[zzontar]

Time travel has always intrigued me as I believe it to be possible... if indeed you could enter and exit on any time plane, then there could be no beginning or end of time e.g. if the universe was going to collapse on itself you could go back in time and never experience the end, so every instant of time would exist at every moment... I think Spock said it best when he said "fascinating."

[steven lloyd]

Picture the structure of a molecule Steven. Then picture the structure of atoms that comprise that molecule (Descending in size) Then picture the structure of the universe.. (Ascending in size)

Edit to add: To me it is all very orderly, just a matter of different dimensions. And anything that exists within one dimension cannot possibly interact one on one with anything that exists in a higher or lower dimension.

Nab

Aah, thanks Nabs. I understand exactly what you’re describing now and have thought of that relation before myself. Just as protons, neutrons and electrons orbit the nucleus of an atom, planets similarly orbit their sun or star, solar systems orbit the center of the galaxies they belong to, and some theory has it that the galaxies themselves are spinning around some center point in this universe (the origin point or “ground zero” – so to speak?).

What about your statement “anything that exists within one dimension cannot possibly interact one on one with anything that exists in a higher or lower dimension”? What are you getting at here?

[steven lloyd]

... I think Spock said it best when he said "fascinating."

Followed by "Indeed."

[NAB]

Picture the structure of a molecule Steven. Then picture the structure of atoms that comprise that molecule (Descending in size) Then picture the structure of the universe.. (Ascending in size)

Edit to add: To me it is all very orderly, just a matter of different dimensions. And anything that exists within one dimension cannot possibly interact one on one with anything that exists in a higher or lower dimension.

Nab

Aah, thanks Nabs. I understand exactly what you’re describing now and have thought of that relation before myself. Just as protons, neutrons and electrons orbit the nucleus of an atom, planets similarly orbit their sun or star, solar systems orbit the center of the galaxies they belong to, and some theory has it that the galaxies themselves are spinning around some center point in this universe (the origin point or “ground zero” – so to speak?).

What about your statement “anything that exists within one dimension cannot possibly interact one on one with anything that exists in a higher or lower dimension”? What are you getting at here?

Dimensions to me are a matter of scale (size) not time. If we were but inhabitants of an electron of an atom and took flight, the only matter we would ever encounter would be that matter in the same dimension, not any other dimension ;-)

Similarly, if we as inhabitants of earth took flight, we could never interact with whatever we are part of at a higher or lower dimension, only that matter and related forces that exists within our own dimension.

Edit to add: Looked at another way, if all is as orderly on an ascending scale/dimension as it seems to be on a descending scale/dimension, then we could merely be inhabitants of an 'electron' of a higher dimensional atom, forming part of a higher dimensional molecule, which in turn forms part of a higher dimensional piece of matter. If that piece of matter happened to be the hair on the head of some supreme being, and he/she/it decided to get a haircut... Welllll... ;-)

the possibilities would indeed be 'infinite' ;-)

Nab

[steven lloyd]

Looked at another way, if all is as orderly on an ascending scale/dimension as it seems to be on a descending scale/dimension, then we could merely be inhabitants of an 'electron' of a higher dimensional atom, forming part of a higher dimensional molecule, which in turn forms part of a higher dimensional piece of matter. If that piece of matter happened to be the hair on the head of some supreme being, and he/she/it decided to get a haircut... Welllll... ;-)

the possibilities would indeed be 'infinite' ;-)

Nab

LOLOLOL. I remember this discussion from "Animal House", except they were talking about entire distinct universes existing in a fingernail. But heh, who's to say ;-)