Book of Mormon

[Big ned]

Since there has been a little discussion on the Book of Mormon in another thread, I thought I would post an interesting article on some of the interesting discoveries found lately on the book.

http://www.mormontimes.com/studies_doct ... s/?id=4205

Feel free to comment.

[Born_again]

I believe I still have my original from the mid-'70's in a tea chest back in the UK. It is bound in white leather with lots of gilt pressed into it. It has 20-30 beautiful illustrations inside, and the pages are silky/creamy to the touch. A finely crafted book for sure.

[Corneliousrooster]

Since there has been a little discussion on the Book of Mormon in another thread, I thought I would post an interesting article on some of the interesting discoveries found lately on the book.

http://www.mormontimes.com/studies_doct ... s/?id=4205

Feel free to comment.

Yes - great "discoveries" on the book of Mormon by Mormon's for Mormons - how credible.

[Big ned]

The white books of mormon. I haven't seen one of those in a long time. May be a collectors edition at this point.

If you read the article cornelius, you will see that many of the discoveries are found in ancient literature by people who have nothing to do with Mormonism. The interesting thing is that those same patterns (such as chiasmus) are also found in the book of mormon... not something a 21 year old farm boy back in those time would have been familiar with, because it hadn't been discovered yet...

No , this is not Mormons making up things to benefit Mormons... Thanks for your literary critique and insight though.

[Corneliousrooster]

Oh - I read the article, just missed the startling "Discoveries"

The book of mormon did not come out of thin air - there is plenty in there that a "21 year old farm boy" could plagerize from other texts. i'm sure he had no knowledge of a god or religion by age 21 and all the book of mormon came staight from the mouth of god to his brain to be transcribed to enlighten all the good people of earth. He did not need to be scholarly or have a knowledge of history find biblical names to throw into "his" bible

As for chiasmus - Looks an awful lot like poetry to me - there are a lot of poetic tools used to tell stories - chiasmus doesn't appear to be a whole lot different

Being skilled at word play does not a prophet make....

[Big ned]

Have you read any of the Book of Mormon?

It starts in Jerusalem. Interestingly enough, it documents the travel of Lehi and his family from Jerusalem, along a specific path that even mentions names and description of places that have been found to be accurate... place that North Americans and even Europeans didn't have access to at the time of Joseph Smith.

There are plenty of other examples of things that in the past had been thought to be inaccuracies attributed to Joseph Smith that have been proven true through recent archeological finds. I'm afraid there is much more to the book of Mormon than you attribute.

As for Chiasmus, it is not poetry... it is a very complicated form of writing from the middle east that takes an idea and expands on it and then condenses it back down. It can be done in a few sentences (which is hard enough to do) but there is one whole chapter in the Book of Mormon that is Chiasmus.. very difficult and certainly not something Joseph Smith (nor anyone at the time) would have known about, let alone made an attempt at.

[Corneliousrooster]

Have you read any of the Book of Mormon?

It starts in Jerusalem. Interestingly enough, it documents the travel of Lehi and his family from Jerusalem, along a specific path that even mentions names and description of places that have been found to be accurate... place that North Americans and even Europeans didn't have access to at the time of Joseph Smith.

There are plenty of other examples of things that in the past had been thought to be inaccuracies attributed to Joseph Smith that have been proven true through recent archeological finds. I'm afraid there is much more to the book of Mormon than you attribute.

As for Chiasmus, it is not poetry... it is a very complicated form of writing from the middle east that takes an idea and expands on it and then condenses it back down. It can be done in a few sentences (which is hard enough to do) but there is one whole chapter in the Book of Mormon that is Chiasmus.. very difficult and certainly not something Joseph Smith (nor anyone at the time) would have known about, let alone made an attempt at.

Yes - i am sure that Joseph Smith did not know he was indeed writing in "Chiasmus" but I am sure that Joseph Smith knew he was writing in a very "Clever" way, similar to Clever writing styles that preceded it and similar to several clever writings and sayings that are used today (although those using it are probably not touting their great skills of Chiasmus). I will give him points for creativity but what makes you think "no one of his time would make an attempt at it"????

and ya - I don't think Jerusalem was unheard of in the time of Joseph Smith, anyone who was reading the bible at the time (take your pick of any sect of christianity) would have some historical knowledge of jerusalem, pretty common ground for christians (jews, muslims....)


I look forward to receiving some 'non-mormon' links to show me the specific path with names and places that have been proven to be accurate that Joseph described...... (where no europeans and North americans had access to at the time??? - Napolean was there in the late 1700's and The first British Consolate in jerusalem was opened in 1838 - knowing they were accessed by the western world plenty in Joseph Smiths time there is a pretty good chance that all the seeds of locales and routes weren't planted in Josephs head by God himself

[Big ned]

Are you serious? chiasmus is a form of writing that was not even used in the western world until it was discovered in old world writings... it isn't just some "clever" writing... it is very advanced structural writing. Not something someone happens to come up with while putting together a very complex scriptural document... especially when that person doesn't even have a grade 12 education. You are definitely floundering there.

I also didn't say "No one knew about jerusalem" I said there were parts of the middle east that were off limits to non muslims at the time. If you follow on a map the travels of Lehi's family, it took them through those areas... the account is very accurate and there are names there today that are used in the Book of Mormon.. even to a detailed description of the area they stayed for many years building a boat... all very accurate...Just a guess on Joseph's part? Impossible.

[Corneliousrooster]

Are you serious? chiasmus is a form of writing that was not even used in the western world until it was discovered in old world writings... it isn't just some "clever" writing... it is very advanced structural writing. Not something someone happens to come up with while putting together a very complex scriptural document... especially when that person doesn't even have a grade 12 education. You are definitely floundering there.

I also didn't say "No one knew about jerusalem" I said there were parts of the middle east that were off limits to non muslims at the time. If you follow on a map the travels of Lehi's family, it took them through those areas... the account is very accurate and there are names there today that are used in the Book of Mormon.. even to a detailed description of the area they stayed for many years building a boat... all very accurate...Just a guess on Joseph's part? Impossible


Really.....Chiasmus appears to have begun as a structural form which then developed into an intriguing rhetorical device which has been used sporadically in prose and poetry by many authors for nearly three thousand years. Nevertheless, the awareness of such a form, except in isolated cases, remained a part of the intellectual subconsciousness of modern Western Europe until frequent chiasmal passages were discovered in the Bible.

Like I said, he probably didn't know it was "CHIASMUS" But he had plenty of examples to guide his Creation. 3000 years of usage - not an epiphany. Had Joseph Smith not ever read a bible before?, I think not. You do not need beyond a high school education to be able to read and detect patterns and word play. I lie how everyone tries to play up that Joseph was such a farmboy hick. Now tell us about his mental capacity - far more value than an education. Its like you are saying uneducated people couldn't possibly do anything literate. If he could read and write, and had any kind of creative intuition - I believe Joseph Smith could write many forms of writing that were not "Educated" to him. I just don't find Chiasmus to be this great superhuman writing skill you make it out to be. Haiku on the other hand.....

I am still waiting for your examples of Jerusalem locations that know one but God could possibly have told joseph....... ( I don't think you will find any though.....)

[Big ned]

What I am saying is that the examples of chiasmus in the book of mormon is so complex that Joseph (at age 21) couldn't possibly have come up with those examples, especially in the short time that it took for him to translate the Book of Mormon.

You want to have examples of the middle eastern names and places? Sure:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon ... /Old_World

Pay particular attention to the Nahom example... very fascinating. Even if he had read the name Nahom in the bible (which is likely) how could he have named a place or area that and have it actually exist in the precise area that Lehi's narrative describes it? How could he describe any of the places (having described the route) and have them match up so extraordinarily?

Also, here is a link to the lectures on Joseph Smith at the library of congress. Many of them given by non-LDS scholars. Again, interesting insights.

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,49 ... -1,00.html

[GordonH]

Since there has been a little discussion on the Book of Mormon in another thread, I thought I would post an interesting article on some of the interesting discoveries found lately on the book.

http://www.mormontimes.com/studies_doct ... s/?id=4205

Feel free to comment.

I don't know who translated the ancient hebrew for: NEVI'IM ISAIAH 29:14

Truly, I shall further baffle that people
With bafflement upon bafflement;
And the wisdom of its wise shall fail,
And the prudence of its prudent shall vanish.

[Big ned]

Since there has been a little discussion on the Book of Mormon in another thread, I thought I would post an interesting article on some of the interesting discoveries found lately on the book.

http://www.mormontimes.com/studies_doct ... s/?id=4205

Feel free to comment.

I don't know who translated the ancient hebrew for: NEVI'IM ISAIAH 29:14

Truly, I shall further baffle that people
With bafflement upon bafflement;
And the wisdom of its wise shall fail,
And the prudence of its prudent shall vanish.

You'll have to be a little more clear... I'm baffled.

[GordonH]

That is as translation from hebrew. Your cartoons say a lot about you.

[Big ned]

Actually what is up... I believe this is why God chose Joseph Smith to restore the gospel. It is much easier to work with someone who has no preconceptions... why wouldn't God choose the pope to restore his gospel? To heavily entrenched in what he had learned before hand.

Joseph was an intelligent young man searching for the truth and feeling like he was unable to find it among the various schizms in christianity.

When truth was introduced, it was accepted by the simple and it confounded the wise.

[GordonH]

I will end this with some advice to you Big ned, go learn ancient hebrew & biblical greek. Than read the old & New testament as they were written. Then add the book of mormon and/or catholic bible.
IMO stay away roman catholicism but that's may opinion.

I gave you some advice from the heart. Do with it as you wish.