Evolution or Creation?

[Geckonidae]

Evolution : big bang theory ... what came before that ... nothingness ... what is nothingness ... no one can explain it ... mystery
Creation : God created everything ... what came before that ... nothingness ... what is nothingness ... no one can explain it ... mystery

Until the mystery is solved all you can do is " Just love each other, that is all you can do and that is all anyone really wants ".
If every child on Earth was taught these simple words, the world would be so much better.

That's not completely true though. On the science front, there are people who absolutely are attempting to explain the mystery. Science is, always has, and always will provide answers to life's mysteries.

On the religious front, there is a simple explanation, not a mystery. Who created the universe? "God." Who created God? "God has always existed, God is eternal." What came before God? "Nothing...God is eternal." But how can God be eternal, how can God exist without a process to bring him/her/it into existence? "Shut up and stop asking questions."

[zzontar]

On the scientific front, people can ask what created the elements that created the elements and get the same response. I do find it fascinating that the two elements which just happened to be there at the beginning just happened to be the two needed to create everything today. As far as knowing what nothing is, one thing not covered is that for nothing to exist there has to be a consciousness.

[hobbyguy]

If you get past literalist fundamentalists, which to me make no sense as I pointed out earlier, beliefs like creationism are quite clearly the best attempt of the time to explain the unknown. This is where religions fall into dogma and fail.

I would be willing to wager than in another 1,000 or so years (if we're still here) that someone will likely look at our best science of today as "the best attempt of the time to explain the unknown".

Our current science is very good at looking at and explaining things. "Things", however, are not the complete body of the unknown.

Consciousness is good example of a topic that is not really a "thing". Science's attempts to explain it, well they kind of get a little "metaphysical", or start sounding like studies of the hardware that expresses consciousness. Wander down that "side street" for a while, and I would suggest that it behooves to not get too dogmatic about science being able to explain everything.

Interesting, while I was composing this, zzontar made a point about consciouness...

[kibbs]

all hail zontar got my cabbage leaf .
we cant measure spiritually ,like air which was once probably once thought imeasurable until we developed a way to measure it.but maybe one day we will. id like to leave the door open to that possability

[fluffy]

...what you or I believe doesn't in any way influence what is or isn't true.

Careful now, the entire universe around us is subject to our individual interpretation of the information we gain through our senses, and some of those senses have yet to be properly defined by science. In cutting edge physics it's been shown that the mere fact someone is watching an experiment can change it outcome. These are the areas we spoke of before, where the edges of science and spirituality become blurred and overlapping. It makes sense to stay open to any and all possibilities until one is proven correct. Even then we have to understand that as our knowledge grows what are accepted as basic "truths" can be subject to revision and refinement.

I have a hard time with the whole God concept when it involves a conscious force. I don't have as big a problem imagining something a little more Obiwan-Kenobi-ish like an underlying/unifying/intertwining force common to everything, but like I said, until someone shows me the test results I'm open to just about anything.

[SmokeOnTheWater]

I have a hard time with the whole God concept when it involves a conscious force. I don't have as big a problem imagining something a little more Obiwan-Kenobi-ish like an underlying/unifying/intertwining force common to everything

I believe that we are all connected. I don't believe in an entity outside of ourselves.

[JLives]

“Recognize that the very molecules that make up your body, the atoms that construct the molecules, are traceable to the crucibles that were once the centers of high mass stars that exploded their chemically rich guts into the galaxy, enriching pristine gas clouds with the chemistry of life. So that we are all connected to each other biologically, to the earth chemically and to the rest of the universe atomically. That’s kinda cool! That makes me smile and I actually feel quite large at the end of that. It’s not that we are better than the universe, we are part of the universe. We are in the universe and the universe is in us.”
― Neil deGrasse Tyson

[Geckonidae]

On the scientific front, people can ask what created the elements that created the elements and get the same response. I do find it fascinating that the two elements which just happened to be there at the beginning just happened to be the two needed to create everything today. As far as knowing what nothing is, one thing not covered is that for nothing to exist there has to be a consciousness.

Hey, do you have any links to support your last statement? Or is this just another version of the "if a tree falls in the forest" question?

[Geckonidae]

If you get past literalist fundamentalists, which to me make no sense as I pointed out earlier, beliefs like creationism are quite clearly the best attempt of the time to explain the unknown. This is where religions fall into dogma and fail.

I would be willing to wager than in another 1,000 or so years (if we're still here) that someone will likely look at our best science of today as "the best attempt of the time to explain the unknown".

Our current science is very good at looking at and explaining things. "Things", however, are not the complete body of the unknown.

Consciousness is good example of a topic that is not really a "thing". Science's attempts to explain it, well they kind of get a little "metaphysical", or start sounding like studies of the hardware that expresses consciousness. Wander down that "side street" for a while, and I would suggest that it behooves to not get too dogmatic about science being able to explain everything.

Interesting, while I was composing this, zzontar made a point about consciouness...

You don't need to go 1000 years into the future. It's understood that all of the answers that science has supplied us with up to this point in time are simply the best answers we have been able to come up with so far. Nobody with any sense is dogmatic about science being able to explain everything. If we thought we had all of the answers, we would simply stop looking for any new answers and it would cease to be science! Just watch that Youtube video, and see how excited Krauss is about another scientist making new discoveries that could prove our current understanding of the universe to be wrong.

[cliffy1]

I should have said quantum physics is breaking down the barriers between science and spirituality. Religion is a bastardization of spiritual knowledge. The problem arose when thoughts were written down and people decided to use the words to create dogma. There is a unifying force that holds the universe together. The aboriginal people called it the Great Spirit or the Great Mystery precisely because it is beyond our finite minds to comprehend. As far as I'm concerned, most science is barking up the wrong tree trying to understand and explain the incomprehensible. Life is not a mystery to be explained, but a reality to be experienced. Both science and religion fail in their attempt because there is nothing to explain. Both detract from the act of experiencing by trying to explain the experience.

When we experience a spectacular sunset, it touches a part of us that we can't explain. The sensation defies words. Yet we seem almost manic to try to explain what we feel and put it into words. But no matter how many words we use, reading or hearing them will never invoke the experience or the sensation. What drives us to try to explain life? What do we expect to gain from doing so?

[SmokeOnTheWater]

Just read that on the thread " Some great sayings ".
Great post.

“The first peace, which is the most important, is that which comes within the souls of people when they realize their relationship, their oneness with the universe and all its powers, and when they realize at the center of the universe dwells the Great Spirit, and that its center is really everywhere, it is within each of us.”
― Black Elk

[cliffy1]

Just read that on the thread " Some great sayings ".
Great post.

“The first peace, which is the most important, is that which comes within the souls of people when they realize their relationship, their oneness with the universe and all its powers, and when they realize at the center of the universe dwells the Great Spirit, and that its center is really everywhere, it is within each of us.”
― Black Elk

Black Elk was a very wise man and teacher. We could do well, as a society and as individuals, to familiarize ourselves with his wisdom.

[zzontar]

Hey, do you have any links to support your last statement? Or is this just another version of the "if a tree falls in the forest" question?

It's a much deeper version, but try to disprove it using science if you wish.

[Geckonidae]

It's a much deeper version, but try to disprove it using science if you wish.

Oh, you got me there. I can't use science to disprove your deep thought of the day. Sorry, that's not how it works. If you want to spout off your deep thoughts as though they were statements of fact, then it's up to you to support them. Burden of proof is on you.

[Geckonidae]

Black Elk was a very wise man and teacher. We could do well, as a society and as individuals, to familiarize ourselves with his wisdom.

Wil Wheaton is also very wise, and I think we would all do well to familiarize ourselves with Wheaton's Law.