Perhaps you need to know this.

[zookeeper]

A is not equal to B

Semantics.

[I Think]

Quite right. Semantics are very important in communication.
In my opinion, fulfillment is only possible when one accepts complete responsibility for everything that happens to one.
You may be very happy, and to a degree feel you are fulfilled by your set of beliefs and your lifestyle, so be it.
How ever if you need a higher authority (figure) how self realized can you be? The need for a higher authority is self limiting.
The idea of god(s) has been very neatly inserted into the mass fear of death, if you do not fear death you do not need god.
btw I fear the pain of death, however death (as an old friend said) is a big black beautiful void.

[steven lloyd]

I believe there is some force that is beyond our understanding that is tied into everything and is everywhere – and I have good reason to believe that from personal experience. As many people have discovered, it is possible to achieve conscious contact with this force through various means, including meditation, but it does require a certain degree of humility. For lack of a better word, most people refer to this force as God – but with millions of people on this planet who profess to have some spiritual belief, making generalized criticisms can be nothing more than childish. To assume that millions of people, many who are highly educated and include scientists and astrophysicists are wrong and you are right in believing there is nothing is pure arrogance. I’m not talking about some old man with long white hair and beard living in the clouds, or believing in the literal translation of words contained in books written from oral tradition passed down through thousands of years. If you cannot recognize what a deflection technique that is to suggest that is the only alternative to your non-belief, but still want to presume you hold some intellectual superiority over those who believe (or know) there is more to reality than what you are capable of seeing or experiencing, then what can be done except be empathetic and feel sorry for your loss. I am completely responsible for my actions and choices. To think that anyone who believes there is something more going on in this universe beyond what you are capable of imagining by default looks to some power to tell them what to do only betrays your lack of ingenious thought. There are billions of people on this planet with just as many ideas of what God is. Perhaps you need to know this.

[maryjane48]

So people of faith don't have free will? Do you think they have it removed surgically or something?

And I'm not sure how you think the fork in the road analogy is different for people of faith. Most people make choices based on their values and desires. People of faith are no different. They do not pause in front of their sock drawer every morning, wondering which pair the Lord wants them to put on.

I imagine you have goals you wish to achieve in life. Things you enjoy, as well as things you would pretty much never do. People of faith are no different.

As for my vision of a fulfilling life...myself and my family being healthy and comfortable are the main thing. Contributing to my community (I do this in my work, as well as some organizations I volunteer for). I like hockey and music, so having the time to enjoy those things is fulfilling. I don't think I'm really opening a can of worms with that statement though.

but do not most people of faith base who to like or what should happen to a unborn baby ?

[maryjane48]

I believe there is some force that is beyond our understanding that is tied into everything and is everywhere – and I have good reason to believe that from personal experience. As many people have discovered, it is possible to achieve conscious contact with this force through various means, including meditation, but it does require a certain degree of humility. For lack of a better word, most people refer to this force as God – but with millions of people on this planet who profess to have some spiritual belief, making generalized criticisms can be nothing more than childish. To assume that millions of people, many who are highly educated and include scientists and astrophysicists are wrong and you are right in believing there is nothing is pure arrogance. I’m not talking about some old man with long white hair and beard living in the clouds, or believing in the literal translation of words contained in books written from oral tradition passed down through thousands of years. If you cannot recognize what a deflection technique that is to suggest that is the only alternative to your non-belief, but still want to presume you hold some intellectual superiority over those who believe (or know) there is more to reality than what you are capable of seeing or experiencing, then what can be done except be empathetic and feel sorry for your loss. I am completely responsible for my actions and choices. To think that anyone who believes there is something more going on in this universe beyond what you are capable of imagining by default looks to some power to tell them what to do only betrays your lack of ingenious thought. There are billions of people on this planet with just as many ideas of what God is. Perhaps you need to know this.

and that is your right to think , but just like everyone else it is your personal trip . neither right nor wrong but it is not any type of fact . but lets look at some facts . before the god cbristians catholics jews invented came along there were other gods invented . romans greeks natives druids early humans before even them all worshipped and beileved as strongly as any christian today in their god . so that kinda points to all gods being human inventions . now spiritualty is what i think steven was getting to when talking of thinking there is a force to tap into and alas there is , but it is know as the strong and weak forces . those are part of quantum mechanics so no need to get indepth in that here , but it is worth mentioning that if our universe keeps expanding it will die a cold dark death . no rapture no anti christ ect ect . i havec never understood why humans need to invent stuff to explain what we cant understand in nature , and nothing that we have discouvered points to anything other than nature itself being in command . if there is proof to the contrary then please post a link , i would love to read about it. faith spirituality is a personal concept and should never be projected on to anyone else . therec is zero to prove so far of those two things having any validity . the next round of the big collider is looking to see basicaly the point of when the big bang took place and if a dude with a white beard hops out of the test , then i may changev my mind on few things . but until then , i will stick with what we do know is shown to be factual

[JayByrd]

Quite right. Semantics are very important in communication.
In my opinion, fulfillment is only possible when one accepts complete responsibility for everything that happens to one.
You may be very happy, and to a degree feel you are fulfilled by your set of beliefs and your lifestyle, so be it.
How ever if you need a higher authority (figure) how self realized can you be? The need for a higher authority is self limiting.
The idea of god(s) has been very neatly inserted into the mass fear of death, if you do not fear death you do not need god.
btw I fear the pain of death, however death (as an old friend said) is a big black beautiful void.

Faith isn't based on the need for a higher authority, it's the acknowledgement that one exists.

And you talk about "self" a lot in this thread. I would argue that you do in fact believe in a god...you've just decided that that god is you. Completely responsible for everything that happens to you...fully self-realized, and not limited by your acceptance of anything higher than yourself. Sounds like God to me :)

[steven lloyd]

but lets look at some facts . before the god cbristians catholics jews invented came along there were other gods invented . romans greeks natives druids early humans before even them all worshipped and beileved as strongly as any christian today in their god . so that kinda points to all gods being human inventions . now spiritualty is what i think steven was getting to when talking of thinking there is a force to tap into and alas there is , but it is know as the strong and weak forces . those are part of quantum mechanics so no need to get indepth in that here , but it is worth mentioning that if our universe keeps expanding it will die a cold dark death . no rapture no anti christ ect ect .

ok then

[LANDM]

.......... however death (as an old friend said) is a big black beautiful void.

....he says with a puzzling sense of absolutism.