The Incoherence of Atheism

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Re: The Incoherence of Atheism

Postby Poindexter » Nov 16th, 2017, 3:35 pm

alanjh595 wrote:There once was a great deal of skepticism than man could walk on the moon. Science proved that theory wrong too.


Just the notion of walking on the moon would have been considered heresy given the bible describes the moon as being another sun.

And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars.
Last edited by Poindexter on Nov 16th, 2017, 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Incoherence of Atheism

Postby youjustcomplain » Nov 16th, 2017, 3:42 pm

averagejoe wrote:So your in total confusion all the time is what I'm reading into what your saying? :135:


total confusion? no. But I don't walk around assuming I understand things or can lend some reasoning to it. I'm ok with not knowing how the universe came to be. I'm ok with not understanding climate change or, just exactly how old our species is.

I'm happy to report that I know almost nothing. Life is full of mystery that I'm not prepared to cheaply solve by pretending I know the answers. God isn't an answer; it's just another unexplained question.
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Re: The Incoherence of Atheism

Postby Verum » Nov 16th, 2017, 4:16 pm

Glacier wrote:It's the answer to a religious question, so in that sense, it's a religious viewpoint. When asked "what's your region" you can say "I'm a theist", "I'm an atheist", "I'm a Buddhist", "I'm a Muzzie", "I'm not religious", "I'm a spiritualist", etc.

Atheism is more than passive non-belief or agnosticism. It's an active rejection of religious belief.

No, atheism is just, by definition, the absence of belief in deities and doesn't require active rejection, even if many atheists do actively reject belief in deities, in the same way that most theists actively reject belief in the vast majority of deities. Atheism is simply non-belief in a deity.
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Re: The Incoherence of Atheism

Postby Glacier » Nov 16th, 2017, 6:23 pm

But most people think of atheists as the fundamentalist bigoted intolerant unbelievers, even most unbelievers think this. That's why people don't like atheists just like most Christians don't like fundamentalist Christians. They go on Reddit and Twitter, and get turned off by the militant atheists going way overboard in their vitriol. Almost every single person "unverified" by Twitter is an atheist, and Twitter is largely run by secular types. The only exception is Milo, and he's a gay Catholic or so he claims.

In all honesty, it only sounds ugly and bigoted, but that's because mainstream society doesn't like being told they're wrong or that there's absolute truth or that religions (especially those held by minorities in high numbers) are wrong.
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Re: The Incoherence of Atheism

Postby my5cents » Nov 16th, 2017, 6:34 pm

Glacier wrote:But most people think of atheists as the fundamentalist bigoted intolerant unbelievers, even most unbelievers think this. That's why people don't like atheists just like most Christians don't like fundamentalist Christians. They go on Reddit and Twitter, and get turned off by the militant atheists going way overboard in their vitriol. Almost every single person "unverified" by Twitter is an atheist, and Twitter is largely run by secular types. The only exception is Milo, and he's a gay Catholic or so he claims.

In all honesty, it only sounds ugly and bigoted, but that's because mainstream society doesn't like being told they're wrong or that there's absolute truth or that religions (especially those held by minorities in high numbers) are wrong.

Peraps you could release the parameters of the survey and who performed it, that showed that most people think atheists are bigoted. I'd like to see it.
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Re: The Incoherence of Atheism

Postby 1nick » Nov 16th, 2017, 6:55 pm

Only a couple of pages back Glacier thought your statement that atheists are stigmatized was “complete bunk”

But then goes on to say “But most people think of atheists as the fundamentalist bigoted intolerant unbelievers”

Glace just like to stir the pot and get joe all jacked up,thinking he’s on his side.

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Re: The Incoherence of Atheism

Postby Verum » Nov 16th, 2017, 9:21 pm

Glacier wrote:But most people think of atheists as the fundamentalist bigoted intolerant unbelievers, even most unbelievers think this. That's why people don't like atheists just like most Christians don't like fundamentalist Christians. They go on Reddit and Twitter, and get turned off by the militant atheists going way overboard in their vitriol. Almost every single person "unverified" by Twitter is an atheist, and Twitter is largely run by secular types. The only exception is Milo, and he's a gay Catholic or so he claims.

In all honesty, it only sounds ugly and bigoted, but that's because mainstream society doesn't like being told they're wrong or that there's absolute truth or that religions (especially those held by minorities in high numbers) are wrong.

In fairness, there are some aggressive atheists, but I have, as of yet, never had a single atheist come to my door and try to push their beliefs on me. I have never had one try to keep the door open with their foot and keep pressing/proselytising to my teenage son about the benefits of atheism. I wish I could say the same for Christians. Also, I have never had an atheist tell me I am going to spend an eternity in hell, burning for my sins, just because I didn't believe in the same particular brand of atheism. Atheists have never tried to get involved in my reproduction rights, nor tried to use the law to push their religious values. No atheist has ever told me that my marriage wasn't a real marriage because it wasn't performed in their church.

Atheists can be insufferable, but in truth, Christians are often at least as bad and far more pushy.
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Re: The Incoherence of Atheism

Postby Glacier » Nov 16th, 2017, 9:47 pm

1nick wrote:Only a couple of pages back Glacier thought your statement that atheists are stigmatized was “complete bunk”

But then goes on to say “But most people think of atheists as the fundamentalist bigoted intolerant unbelievers”

Glace just like to stir the pot and get joe all jacked up,thinking he’s on his side.

The word "atheist" conjures up two different things in people minds, depending on the person.
1. A person who is not religious.
2. A non-religious person who is militant and aggressive.

Using definition#1, no, atheists are not persecuted. Using definition #2, yes, atheists do get a negative view. It's the same with other religious groups. You will hear people say, "I'm good with Christians so long as they aren't preachy." This is the same thing. When atheists claim that atheists are the most hated and/or discriminated religious group in society, even more hated than Muslims and Jews, they are applying #2 to the survey, and #1 to the conclusions. People don't care if you or I believe in God or not. They only care if we are aggressive about it.
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Re: The Incoherence of Atheism

Postby Verum » Nov 17th, 2017, 1:06 am

Glacier wrote:
1nick wrote:Only a couple of pages back Glacier thought your statement that atheists are stigmatized was “complete bunk”

But then goes on to say “But most people think of atheists as the fundamentalist bigoted intolerant unbelievers”

Glace just like to stir the pot and get joe all jacked up,thinking he’s on his side.

The word "atheist" conjures up two different things in people minds, depending on the person.
1. A person who is not religious.
2. A non-religious person who is militant and aggressive.

Using definition#1, no, atheists are not persecuted. Using definition #2, yes, atheists do get a negative view. It's the same with other religious groups. You will hear people say, "I'm good with Christians so long as they aren't preachy." This is the same thing. When atheists claim that atheists are the most hated and/or discriminated religious group in society, even more hated than Muslims and Jews, they are applying #2 to the survey, and #1 to the conclusions. People don't care if you or I believe in God or not. They only care if we are aggressive about it.

I have never heard an atheist claim they are the most hated or discriminated group, I think most of them are quite well aware that that "honour" almost certainly belongs to Muslims. Based on Pew research in the US, atheists are probably second least well respected, though it is likely that Jews suffer more hate crime, despite being the most well respected religious group:
http://www.pewforum.org/2017/02/15/americans-express-increasingly-warm-feelings-toward-religious-groups/
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Re: The Incoherence of Atheism

Postby my5cents » Nov 17th, 2017, 7:56 am

You know, I'm an Atheist, but from the sound of a lot of the posts (and certainly not all) a great number of religious people of all types, pay a lot of attention and concern themselves with the religion of others they interact with.

I don't really concern myself with that. I don't care, that is until you bug me, telling me about your religion.

I have however taken many courses and have a lot of experience investigating people and one strong indicator of untruth (ask any cop) is when a person states "I'm a [religion] I'm telling the truth", strongly suspect that they are NOT telling the truth.

Now Glacier,,, how are you making out getting the details of the survey (or whatever) that justifies you saying that "most people think Atheists are bigots" ?
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Re: The Incoherence of Atheism

Postby youjustcomplain » Nov 17th, 2017, 9:53 am

my5cents wrote:Now Glacier,,, how are you making out getting the details of the survey (or whatever) that justifies you saying that "most people think Atheists are bigots" ?


We both know Glacier can't come up with the data you're asking for. It had to be hyperbole. That said, I really can't say how many times I've read comments from atheists who are obnoxious and narrow minded. They are convinced they know all of the answers and that science can prove there is no god. I suspect this is the group of people Glacier is referring to, and those ignorant souls are generally quite vocal, just like most ignorant people are, for whatever reason.

Still, how many of those people are actually atheists? How many are just trolls, out there to try and prove how stupid atheism is by pretending to be atheists and making REALLY weak points, just to be countered by much more intelligent people of faith. It makes me wonder.
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Re: The Incoherence of Atheism

Postby my5cents » Nov 17th, 2017, 11:16 am

youjustcomplain wrote:We both know Glacier can't come up with the data you're asking for. It had to be hyperbole. That said, I really can't say how many times I've read comments from atheists who are obnoxious and narrow minded. They are convinced they know all of the answers and that science can prove there is no god. I suspect this is the group of people Glacier is referring to, and those ignorant souls are generally quite vocal, just like most ignorant people are, for whatever reason.

Still, how many of those people are actually atheists? How many are just trolls, out there to try and prove how stupid atheism is by pretending to be atheists and making REALLY weak points, just to be countered by much more intelligent people of faith. It makes me wonder.

I think there are narrow minded people of all beliefs. I don't think Atheists necessarily stand out.

Using science to prove there is no God, or Gods, is IMO a waste of effort. Proving a negative is, even for obvious situations, is difficult and time consuming. For example, proving there isn't an elephant in Orchard Park shopping centre, would be a massive undertaking and we all know there is no elephant there.

If you want to believe in a supreme being that created everything, fill your boots. I don't agree with you letting your beliefs infringe on other's rights. Yes complete separation of church and state, including reference to your invisible friend in the national anthem of my country.

The sad part, for me, is indoctrinating the young into a religion, before they can make an informed decision on their own.
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Re: The Incoherence of Atheism

Postby youjustcomplain » Nov 17th, 2017, 1:16 pm

my5cents wrote:I think there are narrow minded people of all beliefs. I don't think Atheists necessarily stand out.

Using science to prove there is no God, or Gods, is IMO a waste of effort. Proving a negative is, even for obvious situations, is difficult and time consuming. For example, proving there isn't an elephant in Orchard Park shopping centre, would be a massive undertaking and we all know there is no elephant there.

If you want to believe in a supreme being that created everything, fill your boots. I don't agree with you letting your beliefs infringe on other's rights. Yes complete separation of church and state, including reference to your invisible friend in the national anthem of my country.

The sad part, for me, is indoctrinating the young into a religion, before they can make an informed decision on their own.


Of course there are narrow minded people of all beliefs, and of all forms of non belief. Narrow minded people are everywhere. One difference though is that the ignorant theist beliefs because of faith, just like the well educated one. However, the ignorant atheist claims that science backs his/her beliefs and calls others names. I do understand why some people have a negative outlook on atheists. Many of us, (not you or me necessarily), do give the rest of us a bad name.

Agreed. You won't ever find me attempting to disprove something that can't be disproved, nor will you find me trying to prove something that can't be disproved. It would be a futile exercise. Besides, once you walk through the mall and spot no elephants, the bar will move and suddenly the elephant will become a metaphor, then it will be that elephant didn't mean elephant back in the day when it was first written in the holy book, then it would be a matter of the time it was written, it was true etc... the bar just keeps moving.

The surpreme being.. I assume your comments about that weren't directed at me. Like you, I don't believe in such things. However, I don't believe that the supreme being exists. I simple don't believe. The difference between the two is that one requires belief, which I don't have. :)


The indoctrination of children is the ONLY way a god belief can continue. If all children are not introduced to the concept of a god until they're old enough to make decisions for themselves, I highly suspect the concept of god would fade into history.

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Re: The Incoherence of Atheism

Postby my5cents » Nov 17th, 2017, 4:43 pm

You took the search for the elephant one step further than I did, youjustcomplain.

I was just thinking literally of the difficulties, but I agree with you 100%. I have heard the bafflegab about literal interpretation, verses metaphorical, moving the bar as you said, each time.

I live my life with a different doctrin in mind, "Ockham's Razor" , sometime called "Occam's Razor".
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who haven't got it"

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Re: The Incoherence of Atheism

Postby Glacier » Nov 20th, 2017, 1:36 pm

my5cents wrote:Peraps you could release the parameters of the survey and who performed it, that showed that most people think atheists are bigoted. I'd like to see it.

That's obviously my opinion of why people rate atheists so low. I'm not entirely sure why else people view Muslims and atheists as the worst of creatures. Devon Tracey in one of his videos talked about this. Also, Sam Harris in his pod casts has mentioned that atheists are at the bottom of public opinion. Both of whom say it's because people think atheists are hedonists and such, but that has not been my experience. When I look online, on Facebook and elsewhere, I see atheist generated jokes are well received. I don't see the so called low opinions of atheists anywhere. Yes, there are people who do hold low opinions of atheists and highlight the worst cases like Richard Spencer, but almost everyone knows he's not indicative of atheists. No one is talking about atheist terror (except for a lunatic few). No one gets offended when someone says that there is no god any more than they do when someone tells you that you're a sinner destined for Hell without Jesus.

It's just not there anywhere in pop culture, online, or elsewhere. Rejection of god/gods is quite common and generally well received. That's why I think that when asked to rate atheists, people immediately think of the Reddit atheist, and then generate a low opinion of them. If you were to re-frame the question and say, "people who are no religious at all who just go about their days are also atheists," the answers would probably change, though, again, I'm only offering my opinion.

More reading: http://www.pewglobal.org/2008/09/17/unf ... in-europe/
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