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Why do you believe?

Is there a god? What is the meaning of life?

Re: Why do you believe?

Postby Opeeved » Aug 14th, 2017, 10:11 am

But then zzontar, you said to me earlier there's only 2 options.
As for that question, I know physicists have tackled that question and made mathematical predictions but I'm too undereducated to even begin.
This is one of those things I can't answer. Personally, it all seems cyclical, the way everything is recycled.
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Re: Why do you believe?

Postby my5cents » Aug 14th, 2017, 10:36 am

In this day and age, it's becoming harder and harder for those who follow religion to justify certain aspects and preachings of their religion.

Yes, the have the "come back" points like (the big bang created the universe), "Ya, well who created the big bang ?"

It would be like a current day doctor reading a medical book from the 1700's, trying to justify some of the practices that were prescribed as correct when knowledge was limited.

In a lot of segments of Canadian society, religion has taken a back seat, unlike a lot of other areas of the world.

I worry that the country with the largest military, and the most nukes is far more religious than most other advanced modern countries.

What peeves me are religious people (primarily Christians), when trying to convince someone that they have told the truth or didn't do something wrong, begin the statement with "I'm a Christian, I wouldn't......" So all atheists are untrustworthy criminals ???

Am I the only one who finds it incredibly stupid for professional athletes to pray for a win, before the big game. Ah... if there was a god, why would that god support your team over the other team ?
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Re: Why do you believe?

Postby Poindexter » Aug 14th, 2017, 12:30 pm

Even if we found proof of a "creator", the leap to a Judeo-Christian "God" makes little sense. If the universe was truly engineered, whatever it was that set the ball in motion did so without humans in mind. Given the enormous number of variables that were required to fall into place for us to evolve, it would be a trillion to one bet we were the desired outcome.

The notion this creator would think of us as anything other than another animal is simply human arrogance. The notion this creator would read our mind and answer our prayers takes this arrogance to another level.

People should understand, we are not a special species, we are animals just like all the others on the planet with the exception of our knowledge of death and language. These two traits alone explain the motivation behind the creation of a religion and the ability to do so.

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Re: Why do you believe?

Postby cliffy1 » Aug 14th, 2017, 6:58 pm

zzontar wrote:Strange.... you say
cliffy1 wrote:As far as I can see, beliefs are not much more than wishful thinking.
and then go on to state your beliefs
Yup, the best I can figure is that what we think of as reality is a massive hoax perpetrated by psychopaths and we bought into it.
as if your truth is the truth. I never give much merit to anyone who says for sure it's this way or that as there is no proof either way.

I'm not sure how you interpret "as far as I can figure" as being a truth. The evidence I have gathered points to this conclusion but it is impossible for any one person to accumulate all the evidence in existence to arrive at "the truth" of anything. Hypothesis is not truth and neither is belief.
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Re: Why do you believe?

Postby zzontar » Aug 14th, 2017, 7:28 pm

Poindexter wrote:People should understand, we are not a special species, we are animals just like all the others on the planet with the exception of our knowledge of death and language. These two traits alone explain the motivation behind the creation of a religion and the ability to do so.


Maybe humans aren't a special species, but ghosts or spirits are, so maybe when they're in humans it gives humans that connection to a creator.
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Re: Why do you believe?

Postby cliffy1 » Aug 14th, 2017, 7:58 pm

zzontar wrote:Maybe humans aren't a special species, but ghosts or spirits are, so maybe when they're in humans it gives humans that connection to a creator.

At our core, we are conscious energy (spirit). At its core, the Universe is conscious energy and we are just one aspect of that energy.
“You are not IN the universe, you ARE the universe, an intrinsic part of it. Ultimately you are not a person, but a focal point where the universe is becoming conscious of itself. What an amazing miracle.” ~Eckhart Tolle
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Re: Why do you believe?

Postby Poindexter » Aug 15th, 2017, 10:06 am

zontar: Maybe humans aren't a special species, but ghosts or spirits are, so maybe when they're in humans it gives humans that connection to a creator.


What leads you to believe there are ghosts or spirits?

Other animals love, dance, play, create beauty, feel sadness. What makes us so unique that you need to attribute characteristics such as these to an external entity?

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Re: Why do you believe?

Postby zzontar » Aug 15th, 2017, 11:15 pm

Poindexter wrote:What leads you to believe there are ghosts or spirits?

Other animals love, dance, play, create beauty, feel sadness. What makes us so unique that you need to attribute characteristics such as these to an external entity?


Maybe all warm-blooded animals have spirits as they have the same emotions. Maybe the more intelligence the more of a connection. Millions of people claimed to have seen ghosts and there are many stories of dogs seeing ghosts as well.
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Re: Why do you believe?

Postby youjustcomplain » Aug 16th, 2017, 9:07 am

zzontar wrote:You have to open your mind more. As there are only 2 choices, do all the elements that made everything have no beginning, or did they just appear?


Even *IF* there are only those two choices, who among us is in a position to chose which is true? I don't like one of the choices, but I don't decide the other must be true based on that. I continue to find myself unfit to believe in either of your two choices. It doesn't mean I have a third choice in mind. I wouldn't know what that was either.

This is sort of where I wanted the thread to go. Most of us pick which choice makes the most sense to us, or makes us feel like we understand it. I'm only looking for a healthy discussion of the topic. My goal is to keep this completely civil !

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Re: Why do you believe?

Postby youjustcomplain » Aug 16th, 2017, 9:41 am

zzontar wrote:Maybe all warm-blooded animals have spirits as they have the same emotions. Maybe the more intelligence the more of a connection. Millions of people claimed to have seen ghosts and there are many stories of dogs seeing ghosts as well.


You're right in the sense that it's hypothetical. It *might* be true. And it might not be true. I think a big part of the reason people are atheists, is that we find it uncomfortable picking sides. I'm ok with not knowing if ghosts are real. I'm ok with not knowing if any first hand accounts of people or dogs seeing theses ghosts are real. I'm pretty content with just understanding that I'll never know.

I find it very interesting that so many people pick a side when either or neither could be the correct one.
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Re: Why do you believe?

Postby youjustcomplain » Aug 16th, 2017, 9:55 am

my5cents wrote:Am I the only one who finds it incredibly stupid for professional athletes to pray for a win, before the big game. Ah... if there was a god, why would that god support your team over the other team ?


Stupid? I don't think it's stupid. You have to remember that they believe someone is listening to them and that they might have some level of influence over the outcome. I suspect these athletes credit their god for the skills they have and the good fortune they've had. I just don't think it's stupid to pray for a win.

What I find strange though is people who recover from a big car accident, after weeks in a coma, and months of rehab after numerous surgeries, who then thank god for their second chance at life. Where is the thanks for the paramedics and fire crews that pulled them from the car accident. What about the surgeons, nurses, health care support staff. What about the numerous people who worked with them during rehab. And lastly, what about the individual patient themselves who had to work hard for the recovery. All of it, disregarded as god is given the credit. No mention of "hey god, why the hell did you almost kill me??"
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Re: Why do you believe?

Postby Opeeved » Aug 16th, 2017, 10:02 am

zzontar wrote:Millions of people claimed to have seen ghosts and there are many stories of dogs seeing ghosts as well.

That makes me think. A possible explanation is variations in earths magnetic field or solar activity. Electricty and magnetism. Brain is electrical. We have deduced that animals, recently dogs as well can sense it. Maybe our large brains no longer found a need, like our diminished other senses comparatively speaking to other mammals, but a few among us can still "feel" it.
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Re: Why do you believe?

Postby Glacier » Aug 18th, 2017, 6:42 am

my5cents wrote:In this day and age, it's becoming harder and harder for those who follow religion to justify certain aspects and preachings of their religion.

Yes, the have the "come back" points like (the big bang created the universe), "Ya, well who created the big bang ?"

It would be like a current day doctor reading a medical book from the 1700's, trying to justify some of the practices that were prescribed as correct when knowledge was limited.

In a lot of segments of Canadian society, religion has taken a back seat, unlike a lot of other areas of the world.

I worry that the country with the largest military, and the most nukes is far more religious than most other advanced modern countries.

What peeves me are religious people (primarily Christians), when trying to convince someone that they have told the truth or didn't do something wrong, begin the statement with "I'm a Christian, I wouldn't......" So all atheists are untrustworthy criminals ???

Am I the only one who finds it incredibly stupid for professional athletes to pray for a win, before the big game. Ah... if there was a god, why would that god support your team over the other team ?

I'm not sure what planet you're on, but the USA is far less religious than it has ever been. Meanwhile, generation z in the UK and across Europe is more religious than it's been since WW2. Generation Z is the Europe of tomorrow.

I sort of agree that it's stupid to pray for a win, but you know what they say, if you think you're going to win, your odds go up that you will win, so perhaps it actually works to a certain degree.
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Re: Why do you believe?

Postby zzontar » Aug 18th, 2017, 6:57 am

youjustcomplain wrote:
You're right in the sense that it's hypothetical. It *might* be true. And it might not be true. I think a big part of the reason people are atheists, is that we find it uncomfortable picking sides. I'm ok with not knowing if ghosts are real. I'm ok with not knowing if any first hand accounts of people or dogs seeing theses ghosts are real.


Atheists can believe in ghosts, so there are no "sides" in that aspect.
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Re: Why do you believe?

Postby youjustcomplain » Aug 21st, 2017, 7:08 am

zzontar wrote:Atheists can believe in ghosts, so there are no "sides" in that aspect.


You are right. Being an atheist does not mean you don't believe in ghosts. I'd be equally as curious why an atheist would believe in a ghost though. It would seem to me that belief is required for a god to exist for an atheist. The fact that the atheist doesn't believe, suggests to me that they are highly unlikely to then lend belief to ghosts. But again, you're right. Being an atheist means you don't believe in gods. It says nothing about ghosts. :)

The question for this topic is "why do you believe". Feel free to attempt to explain belief in ghosts if you can. It does fit the topic.

For me, I've seen and heard things I can't explain. I've been sleeping, only to wake up to a strange noise in the house.. I wander around, half awake, looking to see what happened, and with my nerves running high, sometimes I feel like I see something out of the corner of my eye. Every time I've felt this way though, I've realized I was highly nervous to begin with. Still can't explain what I felt like I saw/heard, but not ready to say it was a ghost or spirit. More likely my cat being an idiot with a toy combined with my fatigue + adrenaline. Though I'm also ok with knowing that I'll never know.
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