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Mantler trial

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Re: Mantler trial begins today

Postby crookedmember » Nov 26th, 2012, 8:57 pm

Ken7 wrote:"

I was only curious as to where you come from on your thoughts. Here is a very interesting case law below, which may give you and others another outlook on this very topic. Excessive force, Hell's angel, it is interesting.


http://canlii.org/eliisa/highlight.do?t ... qb496.html


As I said, if not trained the dangers are not known or considered by some.

Police look at these matters from a totally differant point of view. We are trained not to let our guards down.

A example is a knife is dangerous to a officer in uniform, with gun in holster from over 25 feet away. A person trained in martial arts can attack and kill you before you can draw and shoot him.

As Buddy was armed, is there a possibility he has a second weapon concelled on him? Was the officer telling him to lay his chest to the ground ( prone) and Buddy did not listen? Was the officer in control with Buddy on his hands and knees?

This very same scenario may now be used as training. The officer really did not have the suspect under control by police standards. Was he caring a secondary weapon, not known until cuffed and searched properly. I would suggest he was ordered on more then one occasion to lay down and did not on his own doing.

Again until in the same position as Mantler, did he do the right thing I can't say. Would I have done it differant, Im unsure.


Thanks for this. I do understand what you're saying and why you believe the kick may have been justified.
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Re: Mantler trial begins today

Postby goatboy » Nov 26th, 2012, 10:01 pm

Ken7 wrote:"
I was only curious as to where you come from on your thoughts. Here is a very interesting case law below, which may give you and others another outlook on this very topic. Excessive force, Hell's angel, it is interesting.


http://canlii.org/eliisa/highlight.do?t ... qb496.html




I found this part of the decision interesting and I'm sure will be a critical part of the Mantler defence:

“Allowance must be made for the exigencies of the moment, keeping in mind that the police officer cannot be expected to measure the force with exactitude.” (See: Anderson v. Port Moody (City) Police Department, [2000] B.C.J. No. 1628 per Dillon J.).
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Re: Mantler trial begins today

Postby Fancy » Nov 26th, 2012, 10:18 pm

Raven1 wrote:If he is found "not guilty" is there a chance his suspension could be lifted and he goes back to the force?

Wouldn't that be good news?
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Re: Mantler trial begins today

Postby KL3-Something » Nov 26th, 2012, 11:03 pm

Raven1 wrote:If he is found "not guilty" is there a chance his suspension could be lifted and he goes back to the force?

Fancy wrote:Wouldn't that be good news?


With a year and a half of back pay owed. Followed by a civil suit against the force for "throwing him under the bus".
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Re: Mantler trial begins today

Postby LoneWolf_53 » Nov 26th, 2012, 11:11 pm

KL3-Something wrote:Followed by a civil suit against the force for "throwing him under the bus".


No matter how open minded I attempt to keep myself, I'm afraid that to me that video shows Mantler throwing himself under the bus.

As adults we are all accountable for the decisions we make, some good, some bad, and that goes equally for someone in uniform, though I believe they are expected to uphold a higher standard. I wouldn't be surprised at all if in hindsight Mantler wishes he could take that kick back.
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Re: Mantler trial begins today

Postby rideforever » Nov 26th, 2012, 11:17 pm

Ken7 wrote:The point I was going to make was if this person has any expertise. Let's for the moment say they are a mechanic. would you argue with him on what is making your plug foul if you had no training in mechanics. That was why I asked, I guess a little off topic.

Oh well.

To the untrained eye, it was no threat, yes you are all right!


It doesn't take a trained eye to tell the victim didn't pose enough threat to justify a kick to the face. Specially considering he was outnumbered and mantler had a gun pointed at him.

You compare this to diagnosing the internal workings of a engine by someone who's not a mechanic, that'd be more like us guessing what happens in the police station, this however was on video so a more valid comparrison would be watching a tire fall off a car, in which case, even someone with no training in mechanics could tell that a tire fell off the car it's bloody obvious.
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Re: Mantler trial begins today

Postby KL3-Something » Nov 27th, 2012, 12:04 am

KL3-Something wrote:Followed by a civil suit against the force for "throwing him under the bus".


LoneWolf_53 wrote:No matter how open minded I attempt to keep myself, I'm afraid that to me that video shows Mantler throwing himself under the bus.

As adults we are all accountable for the decisions we make, some good, some bad, and that goes equally for someone in uniform, though I believe they are expected to uphold a higher standard. I wouldn't be surprised at all if in hindsight Mantler wishes he could take that kick back.


Oh I agree. I'm sure he would give anything to relive that particular moment of his career.

But the RCMP acted in haste in an attempt to quell a media shitstorm by suspending him without pay. The problem is that the RCMP Act is a piece of legislation (albeit one in serious need of updating) that is governed like all pieces of legislation. By Case Law (i.e. previous incidents). You can bet your arse that Mantler's lawyers have a stack of cases where members out there did far worse, and far more malicious, things that didn't get them suspended without pay or fired. These will likely show that the actions taken against Mantler by the force were disproportionate to the norm. The "Powers That Be" at the time made a decision to suspend without pay I'm sure knowing that they would not still be in their positions when this all shook out (Neither of those who had to sign on the dotted line are in still with the RCMP). With Case Law surrounding other incidents setting the precedent, he will be able to seek remedy from the court for being treated unfairly so the force could temporarily save face.

If he is found not guilty (and even if he isn't) I'm pretty sure his next stop is going to be Federal Court.
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Re: Mantler trial begins today

Postby Treblehook » Nov 27th, 2012, 2:09 am

If there ever was a case where it is best to wait until all of the evidence is in and tested by the courts, prior to passing judgement, then this is it. Seems to me I caught the end of a news program tonight, where Buddy was getting interviewed on the street, and he was saying already that he expects the police witnesses to get up and purjure themselves. Everytime I hear that kind of comment, at the outset of a trial, it makes me wonder what the person knows is going to come out that might be bad for their cause. It is really too bad that so many of these cases get tried in the media on hearsay, assumptions and gossip and [of course] long existing bias or prejudices.
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Re: Mantler trial begins today

Postby WhatThe » Nov 27th, 2012, 2:09 am

KL3-Something wrote: By Case Law (i.e. previous incidents). You can bet your arse that Mantler's lawyers have a stack of cases where members out there did far worse, and far more malicious, things that didn't get them suspended without pay or fired. These will likely show that the actions taken against Mantler by the force were disproportionate to the norm. The "Powers That Be" at the time made a decision to suspend without pay I'm sure knowing that they would not still be in their positions when this all shook out (Neither of those who had to sign on the dotted line are in still with the RCMP). With Case Law surrounding other incidents setting the precedent, he will be able to seek remedy from the court for being treated unfairly so the force could temporarily save face.

I find it rather disturbing that there are enough beatings to establish a norm, I find it even more disturbing that men in positions of extreme authority white wash the incidents.
It seems like this organisation is ethically corrupt from top to bottom.
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Re: Mantler trial begins today

Postby Treblehook » Nov 27th, 2012, 2:18 am

I find it rather disturbing that there are enough beatings to establish a norm, I find it even more disturbing that men in positions of extreme authority white wash the incidents.
It seems like this organisation is ethically corrupt from top to bottom.


You say it is whitewashed!! Where does that come from? Mantler is charged with all offences that he could be charged with; he was suspended almost instantaneously; he had his pay stopped as quickly as they could stop it. Where is the whitewash? Where, in this incident is the evidence to support a contention that "this organization is corrupt from top to bottom"? Also, I think you pretty much missed the point in relation to the discussion you are referring to above. The poster was saying that there are other incidents [which he didn't say were beatings] that when compared to Mantler's actions, the allegations were equally as serious or more serious, and where the accused members were not sujected to suspension without pay! Ergo, he was being treated more severely than others.
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Re: Mantler trial begins today

Postby the truth » Nov 27th, 2012, 7:36 am

gordon_as wrote:Even if Buddy ran over 4 seniors with his truck , then got out and pistol whipped them for denting his bumper , he my deserve a kick in the face , but that is not the job of the police officer. Clearly an excessive use of force. Mantler knew he was cooked as soon as he saw someone filming him. If he had known there was a reporter present , the kick would not have happened. Unfortunately , he will probably get off by claiming the kick was intended to hit buddy in the shoulder , not the face.



really :ohmygod: if buddy or anyone ran over 4 seniors for no reason and pistol whipped them for no reason,
i would want to kick them in the face
what if mantler did intend to hit buddy in the shoulder and not theface, can you prove any different
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Re: Mantler trial begins today

Postby 797hauler » Nov 27th, 2012, 7:39 am

Treblehook wrote:I find it rather disturbing that there are enough beatings to establish a norm, I find it even more disturbing that men in positions of extreme authority white wash the incidents.
It seems like this organisation is ethically corrupt from top to bottom.


You say it is whitewashed!! Where does that come from? Mantler is charged with all offences that he could be charged with; he was suspended almost instantaneously; he had his pay stopped as quickly as they could stop it. Where is the whitewash? Where, in this incident is the evidence to support a contention that "this organization is corrupt from top to bottom"? Also, I think you pretty much missed the point in relation to the discussion you are referring to above. The poster was saying that there are other incidents [which he didn't say were beatings] that when compared to Mantler's actions, the allegations were equally as serious or more serious, and where the accused members were not sujected to suspension without pay! Ergo, he was being treated more severely than others.



if you read their post with another view or understanding you would see it. The person isnt saying they didnt charge mantler with enough charges, he/she is saying they can establish a NORM by utilizing other beatings to make it a normal/ or expected situation, so it should be ok since others did it.
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Re: Mantler trial begins today

Postby zzontar » Nov 27th, 2012, 8:02 am

If Mantler wins and a cop tries to pull you over and you think they have no reason to, I wonder if you can just drive to the police station and park in front of the cameras because you THINK the cop might assault you? What if you're trained that if you do nothing wrong, you won't be pulled over, yet you're pulled over anyway? What if you're a martial arts expert on your hands and knees complying with a cop and you see a foot coming at you, can you use your training to twist that foot into tomorrow? Regardless, if Mantler wins, the public and the RCMP lose.
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Re: Mantler trial begins today

Postby Ken7 » Nov 27th, 2012, 8:07 am

It doesn't take a trained eye to tell the victim didn't pose enough threat to justify a kick to the face. Specially considering he was outnumbered and mantler had a gun pointed at him.

You compare this to diagnosing the internal workings of a engine by someone who's not a mechanic, that'd be more like us guessing what happens in the police station, this however was on video so a more valid comparrison would be watching a tire fall off a car, in which case, even someone with no training in mechanics could tell that a tire fell off the car it's bloody obvious.


By your statement you are guessing you know how trained police officers think. You are further suggesting you know that the suspect had no other weapons on his person at the time of arrest and was not a threat or danger to the officers there. Further, that you have a great understanding of how the levels of force escalate when a suspect fails to comply to the orders.

Take the time out and read the case law I presented. It might enlighten you on some the Criminal Code, and the use of force. It is relevant in the Manter case.

Why I used the mechanic story on the internal function of a motor, not a tire falling, is so you might see it from another perspective. Would you question someone on a topic you know nothing about and tell them they did not do it correctly?

You are not trained eye and therefore have little knowledge on this situation.
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Re: Mantler trial begins today

Postby zzontar » Nov 27th, 2012, 8:18 am

Ken7 wrote: You are further suggesting you know that the suspect had no other weapons on his person at the time of arrest and was not a threat or danger to the officers there. Further, that you have a great understanding of how the levels of force escalate when a suspect fails to comply to the orders.



You've mentioned before that Mantler's big concern might be that Buddy was armed, yet after the boot to the face, Mantler checks the truck first and then Buddy. From when Mantler started to open the door to tell Buddy to get out and on the ground to where Buddy is on the ground on all fours took 14 seconds. If you consider that failing to comply with orders then I guess you'll be doing some kicking yourself.
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