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Okanagan Wolf Kill

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Re: Okanagan Wolf Kill

Postby zzontar » Jan 11th, 2013, 5:09 pm

grammafreddy wrote:They are very cunning hunters, working in packs and separating off the weakest and smallest of their prey or attacking young lambs and calves.



As opposed to human hunters, who want to kill the biggest, strongest animals, thereby weakening the species.
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Re: Okanagan Wolf Kill

Postby nextimeround » Jan 11th, 2013, 5:12 pm

Rwede wrote:
And that's why you have no credibility. Your whole argument is based on a Walt Disney cartoon, as are many of the anti crowd. Reality is far removed from deer and wolves and Thumper the rabbit playing together in flower-covered meadows.


Natural balance includes humans. Get used to the idea, it's been that way forever. We play a role in prey and predator populations.

Deer and other ungulate populations are largely unaffected by human harvest year-over-year. Seasons are set, taking all other factors such as road kill and poaching incidents into account, to ensure that herds have sufficient sperm supply and brood stock to have enough fawn/calf recruitment to replenish the herd.

Man's a rather inefficient predator though and seasons are very conservative, and we consistently under-harvest ungulates, resulting in growing populations. Moose have doubled in the Okanagan in the past 7 years! Whitetailed deer seasons have expanded to include a general open season on does to try to get their numbers in balance before they eat themselves out of house and home. Habitat, weather, and predators have a far greater effect on ungulates than humans ever do.

People need to spend some time understanding population dynamics. Those of us who are involved in conservation projects do spend a lot of time with professional biologists and reading wildlife studies to get the REAL picture. I wish others would too, so that they can understand the science behind game management before they cry emotionally about "Bambi's mother", usually just before they fry a beef steak from Safeway.


But isn't it true that if you left the wolf population alone they would hunt the deer and moose, which would then have their numbers decline to normal levels, etc. In what possible manner do you actually think that you are managing or conserving anything? Do you honestly believe you can do a better job with a rifle and "hunting seasons" than nature would do without human's interfering?
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Re: Okanagan Wolf Kill

Postby Gone_Fishin » Jan 11th, 2013, 5:13 pm

rutland1 wrote:If hunters were doing such a good job we would not need limits and hunting zones. ^^^^^^^^^^^


What? That makes no sense whatsoever. Hunters are the ones who are working with biologists to come up with limits and zones to help manage game properly. Honestly, it's difficult having a rational conversation with someone who thinks that an unregulated free-for-all is indicative of good wildlife management.

BC is THE envy of North America for the abundance of animals and the way wildlife is managed here. We have more wildlife and longer, more liberal seasons than anyone else. That shows we're doing something right, when we can provide the most opportunity for hunters to put organic meat in their freezers to feed their families, and still maintain the most abundant and diverse wildlife populations.
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Re: Okanagan Wolf Kill

Postby beancounter » Jan 11th, 2013, 5:16 pm

If the limit is three per year, how does a trapper know what will walk into his trap after he is already at his limit?
Or does this matter to them? Trapping seems so absolutely barbaric and needless. IMO.
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Re: Okanagan Wolf Kill

Postby nextimeround » Jan 11th, 2013, 5:17 pm

Rwede wrote:
Only 3% of the hunters in BC are trophy hunters. The other 97% hunt for other reasons. Try a valid argument next time.

And yes, we've done a great job (we being hunters) of managing game populations. Our millions of dollars in licensing goes to pay for all the game protection and conservation in this province. What have you done in that regard?


Right, and it's those 3% that I cannot support. Your millions of dollars in hunting licenses only pay a small percentage of the cost of conservation officers et al. What have I done in this regard? Pay taxes to supplement the rest of the cost that's what. I also try my best to live a clean life, respect the planet (worked for environmental groups, am on the board of directors for one) so I do my part to.

Don't get me wrong, I'm Canadian. Most of the people I know (family and friends) hunt. Most eat the meat they get and are very well connected to the land, as it should be. If any of these friends or family wanted to hunt for a trophy I'd say the same thing to them that I've said here.
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Re: Okanagan Wolf Kill

Postby Gone_Fishin » Jan 11th, 2013, 5:18 pm

zzontar wrote:
As opposed to human hunters, who want to kill the biggest, strongest animals, thereby weakening the species.



See the post above about how few fall into your generalization. Only 3% of BC's hunters are trophy hunters. 79% are meat hunters first and foremost. 18% are selective hunters (meat in the freezer is secondary) that hunt for other values, such as maximizing their time outdoors, or challenging themselves by using primitive weapons or hunting more difficult terrain, etc.
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Re: Okanagan Wolf Kill

Postby Gone_Fishin » Jan 11th, 2013, 5:22 pm

nextimeround wrote:Your millions of dollars in hunting licenses only pay a small percentage of the cost of conservation officers et al. What have I done in this regard? Pay taxes to supplement the rest of the cost that's what. I also try my best to live a clean life, respect the planet (worked for environmental groups, am on the board of directors for one) so I do my part to.



Incorrect. Hunters pay the FULL cost of Conservation Officers and biologist staff, as well as habitat restoration, wildlife inventory and transplants, etc. The EXCESS from what we pay after those costs are covered goes into general revenue to support YOU.

I'm glad like me, you volunteer your time and effort to care for the outdoors. Kudos for your efforts. Now, please spend some time researching the North American Conservation Model to understand animal population dynamics better, and share that with your fellow volunteers. We all want the same thing in the end.
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Re: Okanagan Wolf Kill

Postby nextimeround » Jan 11th, 2013, 6:17 pm

Fisher-Dude wrote:

Incorrect. Hunters pay the FULL cost of Conservation Officers and biologist staff, as well as habitat restoration, wildlife inventory and transplants, etc. The EXCESS from what we pay after those costs are covered goes into general revenue to support YOU.


I'll have to research this more.... In the meantime I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

With budgeted revenues of $13M from licenses and tags in 2012/2013 BC provincial budget it would seem that there is a significant amount contributed from hunters and anglers. However the budget does not break out the projected costs of conservation officers and related game management.
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Re: Okanagan Wolf Kill

Postby trapp » Jan 11th, 2013, 6:31 pm

Wolves are in the Okanagan in numbers greater than what your local biologists realize. In some of the areas where they are the elk and deer hers are taking a hit big time. In the past two summers they have taken a liking to livestock on the range. A major indication that wolf food (ungulates) are becoming less and harder to hunt.

Yes they are in your back yard. Closer than most of you realize. They will be coming for a meal near you, cattle, sheep, goats, chickens, house cats and the family dog. Folks we are not in the far North where baronland caribou roam in the thousands, and wolf packs maintain a very strict hierarchy. We are in an place where ungulates are not in abundance.

I am on the land four days a week or more from the beginning of October until end of December, then 2 to three days a week until middle of February. Places where I see no other people except the odd hunter, quader, or snowmobiler. I know what the wolf situation is. Most people by pass wolf sign (tracks and scat) without even seeing it. I have seen one small herd of elk which was becoming established diminish from 20 animals, to a rare sighting of a track or lone animal in just five short years. One other area where I always see deer and lots of sign on the Aberdeen Plateau in December, this winter four deer tracks crossed my tail. There has been a pack of 15 wolves spotted from aircraft in this area. I have not seen that many all at once, but many times sign of 7 or 8 together. Not sure how many there were at one of my bait stations but the area was trampled down for a circle of about 100 meters.

I would suggest some of read this article by Dr Val Giest one of the formost experts on ungulates and wolfs:

http://rliv.com/wolf/GeistWhenDangerous.pdf

Google some of his other literature.

Do I want to see all wolves dead, not at all. I love to howl back at them when I hear them. I enjoy seeing where they have been and how they behave. We just need to have some control on them before they get out of hand. The hunting season has come and gone with the wolf season in Region 8. I doubt if more than 5 wolves were killed by hunters. I have heard of three. We will see what happens by the end of the trapping season. By the way our wolves here are like our coyotes with an epidemic of mange and lice. They are not as nice and fluffy and cuddly as the one in the newscast.
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Re: Okanagan Wolf Kill

Postby Fancy » Jan 11th, 2013, 7:15 pm

Watched a program regarding wolves being relocated and they didn't just kill for food. Considering how many are even seen, I doubt any hunters would get their quota in this area.
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Re: Okanagan Wolf Kill

Postby Brushy Bill » Jan 11th, 2013, 7:21 pm

Wolves don't need saving , they are doing fine on there own , thats why they have started the infestation of the Okanagan.

Hunting of predators is all part of the give-and-take balance of hunting , save 20 deer by shooting a wolf.
Hunter effort has little impact on deer or moose populations , and I doubt they will have much impact on wolves either. Its about opportunity for those that live the life style. No harm no foul.
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Re: Okanagan Wolf Kill

Postby Buckeye19 » Jan 11th, 2013, 7:21 pm

Too many emotional, uniformed posts on here. Sensationalism at it's finest.

Thankfully Rwede, fisher-dude and trapp have answered with responses based on fact, not emotion.

For those preaching about a "natural balance", that simply doesn't exist any more and never will again. You cannot pick and choose what species you manage for. Conservation includes all species and thankfully hunters and trappers are at the forefront in this province.

Before posting emotional responses take the time to educate yourself on the North American Wildlife Conservation Model. This is a system that keeps wildlife as a public and sustainable resource which is managed scientifically by some of the most respected conservationists in the world, all thanks to hunters.

As has been stated already, due to high reproductive rates, wolves need to be managed by 80% yearly if you are going to make a dent in their population. Hunters alone cannot and will not come anywhere close to achieving this number. Even if it were moved to a NBL (no bag limit) like in other areas of the province, wolf harvest would not change. The only way to achieve this number is by aerial gunning and poison. An estimated 150 wolves in the Okanagan is a very, very conservative number and hunters will be lucky if they harvest even 3% of that estimated population.

As for those using the old, "Wolves only kill the sick and weak." line, again, this is another misconception. Wolves kill for fun more often than you'd be lead to believe.

Predators eliminate predators all the time, it's the way of nature. If you don't think humans are a part of nature, you're very sadly mistaken.

Thankfully a wolf season has been implemented before these animals reach unmanageable numbers.

Nature is cruel, if you don't like it that's one thing but turning your cheek the other way and pretending these things don't go on isn't helping anything, wildlife in particular.
Last edited by Buckeye19 on Jan 12th, 2013, 2:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Okanagan Wolf Kill

Postby s0ylentgreen » Jan 11th, 2013, 8:37 pm

good point = Educate yourself about it and you'll gain a whole new perspective on it.

In my humble opinion:

Wolves are definitely hurting the deer, elk and especially moose population in the north okanagan and west kootenays..

they are deadly killers and have taken a toll - its out of balance.

the Ministry is carefully monitoring and adjusting the quotas - like it or not - the wolves must be managed.
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Re: Okanagan Wolf Kill

Postby trapp » Jan 11th, 2013, 8:50 pm

You know nothing dies of old age in the wild. Wild animals die from disease, starvation, or predation. Of all of the predators man is the kindest. My 2 cents worth on the soap box to think about for today.
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Re: Okanagan Wolf Kill

Postby nextimeround » Jan 11th, 2013, 9:17 pm

As much as it makes hunters want to bite their tongue when us non hunters bring up natural balance, it makes me shake my head when hunters think themselves more capable of managing nature than nature itself simply because they've read a report and like to shoot things. Maybe you're all freaking expert biologists, what do I know of you. What I do know for sure is that humans are simply not more capable and this attitude has messed up just about every aspect of this planet.

Humans need to stop thinking we are so smart because you know what? We're not that smart. We've hunted, fished, polluted and populated this planet to near extinction. That is the reality. And hunting a few wolves isn't going to make a difference one way or the other.

One thing though, don't discount the values and understanding of this planet or the balance just because you shoot animals. I'll bet less than 1 out of every 100 hunters actually has any idea of the impact (positive or negative) their actions have on the health of the wildlife and natural areas of this province.
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