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[Darkre]

Again, as a member of the Penticton Indian Band, it’s sad to read the true feelings of this handful of The City of Penticton members who just can’t seem to grasp the fact that the band can built a complex such as this on band land. I’ve read a few times about the property tax and that the City wouldn’t be benefiting from any of it. Well you are correct and guess what, everything that’s built on the city’s land, we don’t get any tax dollars from, so it works both ways. Don’t be so greedy, like I’ve said before we are very capable of doing whatever kind of development any other city is capable of doing. The City of Penticton was nothing but woods and trees, now look at it. So it’s possible for any community to build. The lack of knowledge about Band Land is obvious, so I can’t be too upset about the ignorance I read. But just so you know, we are smarter then you assume and we are well aware of the ins and outs of the business world. Just because you are not involved or updated with what we have going on, does not mean we do not know what we are doing. I mean there's space and opportunity for the city to build an up to date theater, so what' the hold up? If and when a complex like this is built, of course it will benefit the WHOLE of Penticton, as well as surrounding communities, just like whatever is built in the City of Penticton is benefiting EVERYONE.

I'll have to re-read the posts but I have not seen any comments regarding the whether or not the PIB should be able to develop on their own land. Their are however some legitimate concerns regarding use of the City of Penticton's resources (water and waste water treatment plants) to allow for development on PIB lands when the city itself will not receive the tax benefits from those developments. This same argument was raised when the Westbench Residents were voting on whether to connect to Penticton's water supply so be please ensure that you are not interpretting these arguments in a negative or racist fashion in regards to PIB members. I have not seen an agreement between Penticton and the PIB for the use of these treatment plants but the Westbench Residents would have had a very large buy in to use the facilities and I would imagine the PIB would have to pay a similar amount to pay their share of the building and operationing costs.

Any comments you have interpretted as being diparraging towards native peoples and their business sense are likely directed towards the way the PIB have handled development and business arrangements in the past and not at the people themselves. The PIB has a reputation of not being a friendly place to do business, at least in the past. In fact I believe there is huge appreciation and respect on this board for the way the Osoyoos and West Kelowna IB's have used their lands for the benefit of all their members. The biggest difference I can see when compared to their neighbours is that the PIB land is allocated to individual members of the band instead of the PIB as a whole. If this land is developped only one PIB member and his/her family are going to benefit from the income this development provides. It won't be a situation similar to Osoyoos where if a band member wants a job they will have one.

Please correct me if I am wrong on the PIB land issue and who it will benefit once developped. If the revenue from this land once developped will go to the PIB as a whole and not an individual family then I think it is great and a much needed step in the right direction for the PIB.

I still believe it is the wrong project for that site due to the high number of retail vacancies in Penticton.

[_Hello_]

Again, as a member of the Penticton Indian Band, it’s sad to read the true feelings of this handful of The City of Penticton members who just can’t seem to grasp the fact that the band can built a complex such as this on band land. I’ve read a few times about the property tax and that the City wouldn’t be benefiting from any of it. Well you are correct and guess what, everything that’s built on the city’s land, we don’t get any tax dollars from, so it works both ways. Don’t be so greedy, like I’ve said before we are very capable of doing whatever kind of development any other city is capable of doing. The City of Penticton was nothing but woods and trees, now look at it. So it’s possible for any community to build. The lack of knowledge about Band Land is obvious, so I can’t be too upset about the ignorance I read. But just so you know, we are smarter then you assume and we are well aware of the ins and outs of the business world. Just because you are not involved or updated with what we have going on, does not mean we do not know what we are doing. I mean there's space and opportunity for the city to build an up to date theater, so what' the hold up? If and when a complex like this is built, of course it will benefit the WHOLE of Penticton, as well as surrounding communities, just like whatever is built in the City of Penticton is benefiting EVERYONE.

I'll have to re-read the posts but I have not seen any comments regarding the whether or not the PIB should be able to develop on their own land. Their are however some legitimate concerns regarding use of the City of Penticton's resources (water and waste water treatment plants) to allow for development on PIB lands when the city itself will not receive the tax benefits from those developments. This same argument was raised when the Westbench Residents were voting on whether to connect to Penticton's water supply so be please ensure that you are not interpretting these arguments in a negative or racist fashion in regards to PIB members. I have not seen an agreement between Penticton and the PIB for the use of these treatment plants but the Westbench Residents would have had a very large buy in to use the facilities and I would imagine the PIB would have to pay a similar amount to pay their share of the building and operationing costs.

Any comments you have interpretted as being diparraging towards native peoples and their business sense are likely directed towards the way the PIB have handled development and business arrangements in the past and not at the people themselves. The PIB has a reputation of not being a friendly place to do business, at least in the past. In fact I believe there is huge appreciation and respect on this board for the way the Osoyoos and West Kelowna IB's have used their lands for the benefit of all their members. The biggest difference I can see when compared to their neighbours is that the PIB land is allocated to individual members of the band instead of the PIB as a whole. If this land is developped only one PIB member and his/her family are going to benefit from the income this development provides. It won't be a situation similar to Osoyoos where if a band member wants a job they will have one.

Please correct me if I am wrong on the PIB land issue and who it will benefit once developped. If the revenue from this land once developped will go to the PIB as a whole and not an individual family then I think it is great and a much needed step in the right direction for the PIB.

I still believe it is the wrong project for that site due to the high number of retail vacancies in Penticton.

Ok, but the way it's being portrayed does not come across as very nice, but of course you will never understand that, obviously because of your lack of knowledge about the history of Band Lands. Just think how much land was taken from the Penticton Indian Band to be made into “The City of Penticton” and we were not given any property taxes for the use. It humors me to see that now PIB wants to build and expand that there are people in Penticton who are upset about not getting anything out of it. What about the fact that you can choose to shop there or not? That’s a benefit offered to EVERYONE and ANYONE.
You and others are making it like there is too much negativity just because this complex would be built on band land and not on “The city of Penticton land”. Take note: PIB Land is NOT only just individual owned land, PIB does have land that’s for PIB as a whole. Just like any other reserve there are individual lands who hold a Certificate of Possession as well as Band land as a whole. If you go onto Google Earth and click on BC and then Penticton Indian 1 you will see how big PIB land is. We have 3 reserves. I encourage you to take a look and learn a little about it. PIB members are given the same opportunity as any other to apply for jobs located on reserve lands owned by individual band members such as, Greenwood Forest products, Snow Mountain Market and Silver Grizzly. It’s up to the individual to apply or not to.
The people who are upset about certain things that PIB is or will be doing is because they do not know the details of the plans and or agreements we have with whomever and because they do not know and understand the history of PIB lands and really “The City of Penticton lands”.
We do have a relationship with The City of Penticton. This does not solve all the problems that both the city and the reserve have but it's a start to a better place for all. http://www.penticton.ca/pib/default.asp

[Darkre]

_Hello_, thanks for the link regarding the agreement between Penticton and the PIB for the sewage treatment plant.

If I could encourage you to do one thing it would be to use this platform to educate those of us that don't know the in's and outs of a scenario instead of calling us ignorant. If you can see an area where people have a true lack of knowledge use this platform to educate them without taking offense to their lack of understanding. You cannot expect people to be aware of everything in this world but you can provide knowledge when others are lacking it. You may never change everyone's mind but there are alot of open minded people willing to hear both sides of a story.

[fluffy]

If I could encourage you to do one thing it would be to use this platform to educate those of us that don't know the in's and outs of a scenario instead of calling us ignorant. If you can see an area where people have a true lack of knowledge use this platform to educate them without taking offense to their lack of understanding. You cannot expect people to be aware of everything in this world but you can provide knowledge when others are lacking it. You may never change everyone's mind but there are alot of open minded people willing to hear both sides of a story.

Agreed. There is no benefit in perpetuating the bad blood of the past. There appears to be a grassroots shift within the PIB council that could help bring a measure of opportunity to the band membership such as has been enjoyed by neighbouring bands in recent years, but a confrontational attitude like that displayed by past councils will most certainly work against you at this point. The PIB doesn't have the financial resources to tackle project of this magnitude on their own, and willing investors from outside the band are a necessary part of the equation, as is cooperation from the various levels of government involved.

[glassmaster]

If I could encourage you to do one thing it would be to use this platform to educate those of us that don't know the in's and outs of a scenario instead of calling us ignorant. If you can see an area where people have a true lack of knowledge use this platform to educate them without taking offense to their lack of understanding. You cannot expect people to be aware of everything in this world but you can provide knowledge when others are lacking it. You may never change everyone's mind but there are alot of open minded people willing to hear both sides of a story.

Agreed. There is no benefit in perpetuating the bad blood of the past. There appears to be a grassroots shift within the PIB council that could help bring a measure of opportunity to the band membership such as has been enjoyed by neighbouring bands in recent years, but a confrontational attitude like that displayed by past councils will most certainly work against you at this point. The PIB doesn't have the financial resources to tackle project of this magnitude on their own, and willing investors from outside the band are a necessary part of the equation, as is cooperation from the various levels of government involved.

Hello, I think the important thing is to look forward now. Fluffy and Darkre make some valid points. Whether we want to admit it or not, even people from outside this area, have a general opinion that the PIB is confrontational/difficult. If a developer were, given the option of working with the OIB, Westbank Band, or the PIB ... they would most certainly put PIB in last place (at this point in time). That can change, but will take time and some significant changes.

I have a huge admiration for Chief Louie - reason being that he doesn't want to rehash the past .. he just wants to ensure his people are economically stable and working. He has a great (trusting) relationships with his non-First-Nations business partners. He has educated 'everyone' on the possibilities that exist for both groups to work together (and both share the rewards). He has the respect of his people and the respect of those that are not band members.

It would be good for the City of Penticton ... and good for the PIB if there were some proven instances of cooperation and fairness. Regadless of what happened in the past ... it will never change without everyone picking a new starting point, and then moving forward.

I have lived in this area for most of my life ... there has always been the underlying tension in Penticton & Summerland with the PIB. When in the Oliver and Osoyoos area - it feels entirely different. I would hope that we can get to that point here ... it would be good for everyone.

[twobits]

The aggreement referenced by Hello was signed by then mayor Jake three years ago. It is telling that nothing has moved forward since that time. While projects can take time to gain traction, the rumour and chatter I have heard is the agreement has a long way to go before the I's are dotted and the T's crossed on the details. The press release makes it sound as though the deal is done and it is not. If the rumour and chatter beare any truth, and I cannot veriffy, the PIB it seems is being very unrealistic in demands. Time will tell I suppose.

[_Hello_]

The aggreement referenced by Hello was signed by then mayor Jake three years ago. It is telling that nothing has moved forward since that time. While projects can take time to gain traction, the rumour and chatter I have heard is the agreement has a long way to go before the I's are dotted and the T's crossed on the details. The press release makes it sound as though the deal is done and it is not. If the rumour and chatter beare any truth, and I cannot veriffy, the PIB it seems is being very unrealistic in demands. Time will tell I suppose.

I assure you that the views on BOTH sides are the same. Sad but true. Although you may little or a lot about the City of Penticton and what they have going on, I can tell you that you do not know enough about what PIB has going on to determine what's moved forward and what hasn't. But I appreciate your concern.

[twobits]

The aggreement referenced by Hello was signed by then mayor Jake three years ago. It is telling that nothing has moved forward since that time. While projects can take time to gain traction, the rumour and chatter I have heard is the agreement has a long way to go before the I's are dotted and the T's crossed on the details. The press release makes it sound as though the deal is done and it is not. If the rumour and chatter beare any truth, and I cannot veriffy, the PIB it seems is being very unrealistic in demands. Time will tell I suppose.

I assure you that the views on BOTH sides are the same. Sad but true. Although you may little or a lot about the City of Penticton and what they have going on, I can tell you that you do not know enough about what PIB has going on to determine what's moved forward and what hasn't. But I appreciate your concern.

I have no inside knowledge. I stated what I heard as rumour and chatter that was unverifiable. What I have learned over many years is that the chatter very often resembles something very close to fact when the laundry is finally hung out. I wish no ill will towards the PIB but since there are "positions" of sorts in this discussion, I will naturally be interested in the one that affects my pocketbook. Naturally you will look after yours. Hopefully an arrangment that both sides are unhappy with will be the result.
While I recognize the many injustices the First Nations have endured, I have unfortunately become somewhat jaded and weary of the "race" card and the references to historical injustices that no one alive today manufactured. I have seen many opportunities for First Nation's that have failed outright or not materialized for no fault other than their own mismanagment or entitlemnt attitude. Some promising new leaders appear to be emerging and I hope a corner can be turned sooner rather than later.

[_Hello_]

The aggreement referenced by Hello was signed by then mayor Jake three years ago. It is telling that nothing has moved forward since that time. While projects can take time to gain traction, the rumour and chatter I have heard is the agreement has a long way to go before the I's are dotted and the T's crossed on the details. The press release makes it sound as though the deal is done and it is not. If the rumour and chatter beare any truth, and I cannot veriffy, the PIB it seems is being very unrealistic in demands. Time will tell I suppose.

I assure you that the views on BOTH sides are the same. Sad but true. Although you may little or a lot about the City of Penticton and what they have going on, I can tell you that you do not know enough about what PIB has going on to determine what's moved forward and what hasn't. But I appreciate your concern.

I have no inside knowledge. I stated what I heard as rumour and chatter that was unverifiable. What I have learned over many years is that the chatter very often resembles something very close to fact when the laundry is finally hung out. I wish no ill will towards the PIB but since there are "positions" of sorts in this discussion, I will naturally be interested in the one that affects my pocketbook. Naturally you will look after yours. Hopefully an arrangment that both sides are unhappy with will be the result.
While I recognize the many injustices the First Nations have endured, I have unfortunately become somewhat jaded and weary of the "race" card and the references to historical injustices that no one alive today manufactured. I have seen many opportunities for First Nation's that have failed outright or not materialized for no fault other than their own mismanagment or entitlemnt attitude. Some promising new leaders appear to be emerging and I hope a corner can be turned sooner rather than later.

Exactly, you have no inside knowledge other then your own. The best your knowledge can do is based on the rumor mill, which is pathetic to say the least, I pity the fact that all your opinions on PIB are based on unfounded information and hearsay. It's called ignorance.

Is that what you think should happen? That whatever PIB does should affect “your pocket book” to your standards? Your looking out for yourself when it comes to PIB? Becuase I can assure you that more then enough of the choices PIB makes or will make, will not have anything to do with you or your pocket book.

I too have seen many opportunities that “the other race” could have done but unfortunately too have missed out on due to their own mismanagement or entitlement attitude; I guess that’s just part of the life we live in.
But, I too wish The City of Penticton well and hope to see some positive turn around changes, Should I only be interested in the changes that will affect “my pocket book”? LOL!! No, because I'm not that ignorant, I encourage all the best, just because.

[twobits]

Hello....and now you perpetuate the confrontational attitude. I am not ignorant. I am quite weary of your attitude though that you are somehow "owed" something from the residents of Penticton. The residents of Penticton pay for the cost of their infrastructure and have the right to demand a fair contribution for linking to that infrastructure. Damn straight I'm going to look after my pocketbook before yours. And as I said, you will look after yours. Your problem however is that you seem entitled to my pocketbook without offering up the cost of service. And when I suggest so much, I am called ignorant. Gimme gimme, gimme. Grow up. What's next? Another roadblock with bandana's and camo gear? That unfortunately is the PIB history that many of us have not forgotten. I am desirous of moving forward but it is you that appear incapable if a comment as simple as my last post labels me ignorant. You need to wake up and ask yourself why it is the Westbank and Osoyoos Bands have made such incredible steps forward and yet the PIB continues to live in the past and quite frankly, squalor. I blame your past leadership and hope for a positive change. You just call ignorance. If we need education and you have the information, don't speak in riddles and innuendo......spill the facts, let us know what is holding you up from your perspective or you are doing nothing more than whining like your past leadership. Let us, the electorate know your specific beefs. Perhaps we can let our civic leaders know that what you are asking is reasonable. Continue to call me ignorant without correcting me as to why......then I have little simpathy for you.

[Static]

Hello....and now you perpetuate the confrontational attitude. I am not ignorant. I am quite weary of your attitude though that you are somehow "owed" something from the residents of Penticton. The residents of Penticton pay for the cost of their infrastructure and have the right to demand a fair contribution for linking to that infrastructure. Damn straight I'm going to look after my pocketbook before yours. And as I said, you will look after yours. Your problem however is that you seem entitled to my pocketbook without offering up the cost of service. And when I suggest so much, I am called ignorant. Gimme gimme, gimme. Grow up. What's next? Another roadblock with bandana's and camo gear? That unfortunately is the PIB history that many of us have not forgotten. I am desirous of moving forward but it is you that appear incapable if a comment as simple as my last post labels me ignorant. You need to wake up and ask yourself why it is the Westbank and Osoyoos Bands have made such incredible steps forward and yet the PIB continues to live in the past and quite frankly, squalor. I blame your past leadership and hope for a positive change. You just call ignorance. If we need education and you have the information, don't speak in riddles and innuendo......spill the facts, let us know what is holding you up from your perspective or you are doing nothing more than whining like your past leadership. Let us, the electorate know your specific beefs. Perhaps we can let our civic leaders know that what you are asking is reasonable. Continue to call me ignorant without correcting me as to why......then I have little simpathy for you.

[_Hello_]

Hello....and now you perpetuate the confrontational attitude. I am not ignorant. I am quite weary of your attitude though that you are somehow "owed" something from the residents of Penticton. The residents of Penticton pay for the cost of their infrastructure and have the right to demand a fair contribution for linking to that infrastructure. Damn straight I'm going to look after my pocketbook before yours. And as I said, you will look after yours. Your problem however is that you seem entitled to my pocketbook without offering up the cost of service. And when I suggest so much, I am called ignorant. Gimme gimme, gimme. Grow up. What's next? Another roadblock with bandana's and camo gear? That unfortunately is the PIB history that many of us have not forgotten. I am desirous of moving forward but it is you that appear incapable if a comment as simple as my last post labels me ignorant. You need to wake up and ask yourself why it is the Westbank and Osoyoos Bands have made such incredible steps forward and yet the PIB continues to live in the past and quite frankly, squalor. I blame your past leadership and hope for a positive change. You just call ignorance. If we need education and you have the information, don't speak in riddles and innuendo......spill the facts, let us know what is holding you up from your perspective or you are doing nothing more than whining like your past leadership. Let us, the electorate know your specific beefs. Perhaps we can let our civic leaders know that what you are asking is reasonable. Continue to call me ignorant without correcting me as to why......then I have little simpathy for you.

HAHAHAHA Since when does it seem that i'm entitled to YOUR pocket book?? hahah that's hilarious!!!! not once in my writtings did i mention MONEY THAT'S OWED TO ME FROM THE CITY OF PENTICTON. if that's what you stewed up from my opinions then you need to check yourself. i'm very well grown up thank you. Maybe you need to grow up and move on from whatever or whomever broke your heart in the past becuase that's where you are stuck, the past. if i lived in the past like yourself then i'd have a lot of hate for the land that has been taken from PIB to make the city of penticton. but do i?? the answer is NO i do'nt have that hate no more, becuase i've moved forward. hahahah who cares now, it's the year 2011 and you want to cry about sh*t that happened way back. get over it. out of all of your writing i've read, it's been nothing but NEGATIVE, your such a downer. it's sad and i pity you for such an attitude. Every thing i've written i've been positive, even if it's something upsetting, my attitude has been positive in the end. and i still cannot understand why your so in NEED of PIB information and that you think your owed an answer to something....or do you think your owed an apology?? HAHAHAHA!!!!!! I don't need your simpathy what so ever, i've never asked for it nor will i ever. i don't need simpathy from anyone. i'm very capable of myself and who i am. So trust me Mr. Twobits, i do not believe i need your pocket book in my life.

[fluffy]

What is it you're hoping to accomplish here _Hello_? Do you really think insults and attitude are the path to success with those hopes?

[_Hello_]

What is it you're hoping to accomplish here _Hello_? Do you really think insults and attitude are the path to success with those hopes?

Insults and attitude, lol....I am defending myself against the negativity that some people seem to have in this forum. if the negativity that those people have in here, what are they hoping to achieve? what are their hopes? And what most have said, if they want to turn it around and use it against me and tell me i'm insulting, well they need to think twice, because what those people have said are JUST as insulting to me. but of course 3, 4 or more against one isn't going to solve sh*t, we all know that. lol so there's no point.
ps....Little do you know i am a very successful individual. Just because i defend myself does not make me a little person.

So you should be asking the rest if their insults and attitude are the path to success with whatever hopes they have, not just me.

[_Hello_]

This is what it's like for the New Generation to speak with the Old Generation when it comes to the City of Penticton and the PIB.

The new generation looks forward and has a positive out look on how things can be and the old generation can't get past the old news in order to think positive about the relationship and the future. Apparently the old generation thinks there's something owed to them. Which is probably why the old generation assumed that I too thought that things were owed to me.

Thus, coming from the NEW generation, I encourage and challange for that matter, all the negative thinking people and the old generation to move on and move forward to a positive future. If your stuck in the past and do not want to get over it. then there's no point in even having a conversation about anything.

I really feel sorry for you if all you can think about is how things were done 10, 15, 20 or more years ago. Things just aren't the same anymore. New people are in new positions for both the City of Penticton and PIB. Young people are in positions for both local governments and making a change and a difference. If a mistake is made, get up, dust yourself off and move on. If you like it or not, things are going to change. The city of penticton isn't trying to be kelowna or vernon and PIB isn't trying to be westbank or osoyoos. Not saying that one day in the future we all won't be as big as those other cities, but both local governments are moving forward not backwards.

And if none of you can't say anything nice about what i just wrote, then don't even bother. Its sad if all you want to do is find something negative to say about what i just wrote. [/b][/color]

Of course there is no formula for success except perhaps an unconditional acceptance of life and what it brings - Arthur Rubinstein

A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort - Herm Albright

Human beings, by changing the inner attitudes of their minds, can change the outer aspects of their lives - William James