Automatic Gratuity

[Snowbird Home Watch]

First, someone said it once before... when these restaurant servers start to tip their grocery store cashiers, Arbys clerks, clothing store people, the guy that brings their newspaper and the people that get them coffee at Starbucks... then it makes sense.

I doubt if that will ever happen!

Second, I think that large groups in restaurants should get a discount, NOT a penalty.

[Slimzimm56]

First, someone said it once before... when these restaurant servers start to tip their grocery store cashiers, Arbys clerks, clothing store people, the guy that brings their newspaper and the people that get them coffee at Starbucks... then it makes sense.

I doubt if that will ever happen!

Second, I think that large groups in restaurants should get a discount, NOT a penalty.

if you have ever worked in the food industry you would never have remotely suggested the large group discount!! Cheers.

[LANDM]

Wow, your use of logic is simply.........illogical. And wrong.

Sorry but an "opinion" can't be wrong just different than what you believe to hold true. It is what it is an "opinion". His opinion is just as viable as yours.

Wrong......they said

"The only logical reason to oppose automatic gratuity is if you never tip or tip less than the average person, and thus oppose any move that would end the subsidy generous tippers give to stingy tippers. ie. economic theory dictates that the long run result of automatic gratuity develops a level paying field whereby both stingy and generous pay the same rate - that is unless some people would tip on top of that."

That is *not* the only logical reason that this can occur. I gave my example, therefore it is simply wrong. Sorry, but they didn't give an opinion, they stated a certainty and it was incorrect.

If it was stated that their opinion was that most people who oppose it are stingy etc., then that's fine. I don't know if that is the case or not as I don't have experience in the thought process of people when they tip.......only myself and those around me.
All I know is that their statement doesn't hold true because there have been other opinions that don't fit within the boundaries that they have drawn. To then use logic as the basis is about the worst use of logic that I could think of, *in my opinion*.

[Glacier]

LANDM, in the real world, it's the employer that gives incentives to good workers. You said:

"Human nature is such that some people require motivation to do a good job, some people don't.

Automatic gratuities remove the motivation for the sub-par servers."

This is false. Need I remind you of the quote to which I replying...

I would still have Total Control. If I wasn't happy, I wouldn't go back. Extrapolating that out, if the majority of the people weren't happy with the service, the restaurant wouldn't stay solvent, and the reward for lousy service would be unemployment. Conversely, the reward for doing a good job is employment - just like the rest of us.

[fvkasm2x]

Amen to that. I have no problem with automatic tips (and semi-automatic ones too).

ETA: The only logical reason to oppose automatic gratuity is if you never tip or tip less than the average person, and thus oppose any move that would end the subsidy generous tippers give to stingy tippers. ie. economic theory dictates that the long run result of automatic gratuity develops a level paying field whereby both stingy and generous pay the same rate - that is unless some people would tip on top of that.

Easily the dumbest thing I've ever seen you post. So if I get a terrible server and am completely unhappy with my experience, BEING FORCED TO TIP 20% is acceptable and I shouldn't be opposed to it?

[sooperphreek]

Amen to that. I have no problem with automatic tips (and semi-automatic ones too).

ETA: The only logical reason to oppose automatic gratuity is if you never tip or tip less than the average person, and thus oppose any move that would end the subsidy generous tippers give to stingy tippers. ie. economic theory dictates that the long run result of automatic gratuity develops a level paying field whereby both stingy and generous pay the same rate - that is unless some people would tip on top of that.

Easily the dumbest thing I've ever seen you post. So if I get a terrible server and am completely unhappy with my experience, BEING FORCED TO TIP 20% is acceptable and I shouldn't be opposed to it?

you are not forced to do anything. the place is providing you with a service and there is a gratuity included. no one kidnaps you with a gun to your head and makes you go........

[LANDM]

Amen to that. I have no problem with automatic tips (and semi-automatic ones too).

ETA: The only logical reason to oppose automatic gratuity is if you never tip or tip less than the average person, and thus oppose any move that would end the subsidy generous tippers give to stingy tippers. ie. economic theory dictates that the long run result of automatic gratuity develops a level paying field whereby both stingy and generous pay the same rate - that is unless some people would tip on top of that.

Easily the dumbest thing I've ever seen you post. So if I get a terrible server and am completely unhappy with my experience, BEING FORCED TO TIP 20% is acceptable and I shouldn't be opposed to it?

you are not forced to do anything. the place is providing you with a service and there is a gratuity included. no one kidnaps you with a gun to your head and makes you go........

Yes, you *are* being forced simply by virtue of having a certain number of people in your party. x people, it is not forced while x+1 people are forced to pay *regardless of level of service*.
In an ideal world, this conversation would be irrelevant because the service would be fine no matter what.

In our world, however, it is clear that there are enough instances where this doesn't hold true and the customers find that the service declines.

While it is certainly possible to get up and leave, if you have planned an evening with 7 people and you arrive and notice (or worse yet, do not notice) that this is added regardless of the situation, you won't be getting up and leaving. It is also reasonable to assume that the service would be fine as it isn't going to be a situation where you simply aren't going to be tipping. However, if it turns into a bad service evening and 20% isn't reasonable based on that, then it is not fair.

[bumblebuns]

The easiest solution, if you are unhappy with the automatic gratuity, move to the next table, or split up the group.

[Glacier]

Easily the dumbest thing I've ever seen you post. So if I get a terrible server and am completely unhappy with my experience, BEING FORCED TO TIP 20% is acceptable and I shouldn't be opposed to it?

I appreciate your candor, but when gratuity becomes automatic as it is in Europe, it's no longer a gratuity. Instead, it's left as a separate line item for historic reasons. I would argue that the threat of being fired or demoted, and the opportunity to get a wage promotion within the business is incentive enough to please the customers. I vote with my feet, but I can see that not everyone operates the same way. In that respect, perhaps there are other logical ways to look at it that I never considered...


FWIT, the Grey Dog Cafe in Vernon has the best service I've seen anywhere.

[fvkasm2x]

Easily the dumbest thing I've ever seen you post. So if I get a terrible server and am completely unhappy with my experience, BEING FORCED TO TIP 20% is acceptable and I shouldn't be opposed to it?

I appreciate your candor, but when gratuity becomes automatic as it is in Europe, it's no longer a gratuity. Instead, it's left as a separate line item for historic reasons. I would argue that the threat of being fired or demoted, and the opportunity to get a wage promotion within the business is incentive enough to please the customers. I vote with my feet, but I can see that not everyone operates the same way. In that respect, perhaps there are other logical ways to look at it that I never considered...


FWIT, the Grey Dog Cafe in Vernon has the best service I've seen anywhere.

Well I think we all vote with our feet... I think the problem is that most of us wouldn't be aware that a business has an automatic gratuity added to a bill until we've been there and see it for ourselves. In that respect, it would be a shock to most.

We can compare tipping to many places. I've been all over Asia and the service I've had in Japan, South Korea, Thailand, etc... easily surpasses most dining experiences I have here at home and there isn't really such a thing as tipping in most Asian countries. The staff give exceptional service there without expectation, because that is what they are paid to do.

I think it would be shocking to many people if they went to a place and saw that 20% was added (assuming they didn't know about it beforehand).

[mekathy]

First, someone said it once before... when these restaurant servers start to tip their grocery store cashiers, Arbys clerks, clothing store people, the guy that brings their newspaper and the people that get them coffee at Starbucks... then it makes sense.

I doubt if that will ever happen!

Second, I think that large groups in restaurants should get a discount, NOT a penalty.

Store Cashiers, workers at Arbys, clothing store etc are paid minimum wage which is now $9.50 an hour. Servers in restaurants where alcohol is sold are paid below that wage. I like to frequent establishments that go above and beyond so I am prepared to tip generously for that. If I didn't care about the service I was getting I think I would just stay home. If I don't think a server has gone above and beyond, I will tip or not tip accordingly, If I think a server or kitchen staff has not provided me with an acceptable service level, I would talk to a manager. It is up to me if I feel the situation has been resolved and whether or not I will refrequent that establishment. I have no problem with an autogratuity, to me it just makes paying the bill one step easier. I just like it to be posted so that I don't double tip...

[johnhenry]

,

[sooperphreek]

A couple that went out for dinner in the good old USA was given a bill with an automatic 18% gratuity on it. They paid for the bill minus the gratuity and walked out. Within minutes the police came and arrested them for theft of services.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=arrested%20for%20theft%20of%20services%20restaurant%20tip&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CDMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworldnews%2Fnorthamerica%2Fusa%2F6637437%2FCouple-arrested-over-theft-for-refusing-to-tip-in-restaurant.html&ei=gaUXT-HBKOSsiAKipqHOCA&usg=AFQjCNESuqGPkgsWzDSaQCssi9br3E-dow



Edited to add a link

umm the last time i checked.....theft was theft. if you walk into any establishment you cant just make up the amount you choose to pay. it was obviously on the bill and in black and white and they made a decision and risked an equal and opposite reaction. kudos to the establishment for standing up for their rights.

[fvkasm2x]

umm the last time i checked.....theft was theft. if you walk into any establishment you cant just make up the amount you choose to pay. it was obviously on the bill and in black and white and they made a decision and risked an equal and opposite reaction. kudos to the establishment for standing up for their rights.

I have a feeling the courts will rule otherwise.

You are required to pay for goods and services, but I doubt they will be legally forced to pay a gratuity. This case could be groundbreaking. It might cause ALL automatic gratuities to be removed or it might make more business put them on a bill, depending on the outcome.

[cv23]

gra·tu·i·ty
 
1.a gift of money, over and above payment due for service, as to a waiter or bellhop; tip.
2.something given without claim or demand.
3.British .a.a bonus granted to war veterans by the government.
b.a bonus given military personnel on discharge or retirement.