Is Kelowna City Hall Spending Out Of Control?

[Grandan]

That last paragraph is pretty insulting, I do not believe it is true.

I believe that most Castanet readers do not know the true costs of construction, I believe a few do know the true costs of construction and I am not insulted by the comment.
The materials that are widely available in the local building suppliers are not of the highest standard but are basic, minimum code. You cannot compare the cost of a commercial/ institutional quality washroom with a typical house construction.
For openers, electrical outlets are "specification grade" and will run you about 10 times the cost of a basic outlet. All the wiring will be in run in electrical conduit to make it tamper proof. Glazing needs to be shatter proof, fixtures need to be vandal resistant. It all costs more money because it is special order. I don't see too many citizens driving around in clunkers because they are cheap to drive, rather they drive newer vehicle because they can afford it. Kelowna can afford an $800,000 washroom in City Park if they can afford a 45 million waterpark and police building, no need to cheap out.

[60-YEARS-in-Ktown]

I simply find it hard to believe, that with the amount of readers on Castanet , there would be none that are in construction estimating.
Wether they choose to comment or not, for whatever reasons, is a separate matter.,
Myself I do not believe that none of them ever read these forums .

[Grandan]

I think our concerns about what City Hall spends our tax dollars should be equally as much an issue as how much they actually wind up spending on these items/projects.
We employ a vast array of professionals at City Hall yet none of them can seem to create anything close to an accurate budget and live within it. Is there any project which City Hall has undertaken that does not wind up exceeding the budgeted amount by 10% or more? They tell Council and the public an inaccurately low figure in order to get approval and funding for the project then inevitably wind up spending way more. Look at the new Lakeshore bridge, it's gone up over 10% in cost since approval and they haven't even turned a shovel on it yet. Who knows how much over budget it will wind up being by the time it is actually completed? How about the addition to the parkade? They built the origional parkade so knew exactly what the soil conditions are at that location yet suddenly need more money than budgeted for to build the addition due unforeseen poor soil conditions ???????
If this sort of thing happened as continuously at a private sector company as it does at City Hall those preparing the budgets would be looking for new employment not getting raises.

The following statement particularly highlights the notion that most Castanet readers do not know the true cost of construction.

We employ a vast array of professionals at City Hall yet none of them can seem to create anything close to an accurate budget and live within it.

The fact is that city hall cannot control the cost of contruction materials which fluctuates wildly over time so it is difficult to cost out something which responds to the law of supply and demand. When contractors are busy, the cost of labour goes up, when construction activity is slow, prices can be more competitive. A general contractor cannot know with certainty what his subtrades are going to bill him for what work they do and with the vast array subtrades involved, there is plenty of room for
overruns, unforseen problems with excavation, dewatering, servicing and you name it. A budget is an estimate, based on what what similar projects might have cost in the past, factor in inflation, price of steel, price of copper, price of cement, price of aggregate, price of PVC, cost of labour and all that. The trick is to balance the cost with the need with a projection of future needs, growth projections etc. At the end of the day your building needs to be insured all through construction and lifetime use and insurers need to be assured that the building was built to an acceptable standard so that it does not collapse
(which proved to fatal in a recent mall collapse in Ontario) Besides, most of the cost estimates are performed by the Engineering consultants and Architects based on their experience but cannot be predicted perfectly because you will need to find a contractor to perform the work for that price. If that contractor is from out of town he will need to mobilize all his men and equipment to set up shop in Kelowna because in some circumstances specialist knowledge is need that is not available in Kelowna (or those local contractors are too busy to bid).

[60-YEARS-in-Ktown]

Answer me this.., do you think the incidents of cost overruns are higher on City projects and Govt projects, than on private funded projects.?

[Grandan]

I think that it is universal for cost overruns. First of all "cost overruns" is a misnomer. Unanticipated costs may be more accurate. When you excavate for a building how do you know that there isn't a pile of muck that all the costly preliminary geotechnical survey did not detect? Sometimes there are utilities such as natural gas, buried electrical conduits, water mains, sanitary sewers, storm drainage works that were not properly plotted when they were installed many years previously. Who is going to pay that cost to relocate those utilities? For a contractor, it can mean the difference of a profit or loss on any job.
Good quality contract documents will anticipate and allow for unforseen issues and the contractor is assured that he will be fairly compensated for those costs.

[Ken7]

So, let me get this straight, if you work at City Hall you get an air conditioned office, walk across the street and skate at Stuart Park (where the real extravagance is ) walk to nearby restuarants for lunch and generally cavort around a modern structure. Work at the dump and you have construction portables to have lunch in. The siding is falling off and they just look beat up.
The landfill staff are just as hard working as the folks at City Hall, why should they be relegated to second class?
As I remember, the Landfill Management skrimped and saved, came under budget and did all the right things to earn the right to a better facility, instead, they were cut back, cut down and punted off into left field. It was embarassing to watch (some ) councillors beat down the proposal for a modern energy efficient building that could be a showcase for landfills across the country, not an embarassing construction trailer to show off.
No, the super energy efficient buildings should be earmarked for the good guys like sports and recreation? At 46 million, the H2O centre is extravagent, a 2 million dollar waste management facility is a gift. They have their priorities all mixed up. A 10 % over run is common and built into most construction projects under contingencies.
As for the $800,000 washroom, what is always lost in the discussion is the site improvements which augment the building.
Like a house, without landscaping, the washrooms would not have looked their best.

I guess people think if you wear a suit to work, the surrounding should be leather, and if you wear cover-alls and stink by noon all you need is re-cycled couches and lunch chairs.

Those same people should pull on some work boots and get their hands dirty, just once!! I see a need to treat people alike, however there is limits I think also, but should be reasonable just like City Hall doesn't have to all have their own office, fully furnished in leather or changed when a new employee takes over the space.

[matai]

Well, I know of a city who built nice outdoor washrooms up to the standards everyone is talking about for $250,000 in 2011, and it was also made resistant to vandalism.

Back then city council even thought spending a quarter million dollar was "too expensive".

[Grandan]

Well, I know of a city who built nice outdoor washrooms up to the standards everyone is talking about for $250,000 in 2011, and it was also made resistant to vandalism.

Back then city council even thought spending a quarter million dollar was "too expensive".

I take it that the designs were identical, the amount of "customers" was equal, the city had an equivalent sized budget, the servicing requirements were the same....

[Grandan]

Answer me this.., do you think the incidents of cost overruns are higher on City projects and Govt projects, than on private funded projects.?

I have worked in private industry as well as worked on projects completely funded by the various levels of government.
If you are given a mandate to design something with a budget of 2 million you do not design something worth 4 million to build unless there is some unforseen difficulty where the design costs and building cost rise accordingly. That is why projects are sometimes scaled back or phased to accomodate budget constraints. Occasionally the project come in under budget and the decision is made to add an extra in that was needed but left out due to budget.
Every single person working on a design has an interest in doing their best but all that can be thrown out due to weather conditions, wetter than usual, flooding, extreme heat, loss of power, you name it. Many projects are designed and then put on hold due to poor market conditions that did not show up until the bitter end. May I suggest a particular project in the south Pandosy area has suffered from poor market conditions that did not exist a the start of the project. Some designs are too expensive to build and be profitable in the Okanagan but may be a sell out in Calgary at a good profit.

[matai]

Anyways, I'd rather sheit in my pants than using a pubic washroom used be thousands of people before me.

My opinion: $800,000 for a drain, way too much money.

They could have installed these like in London instead, at least you'd get a nice lake view when you do your thing:

[Grandan]

Right, you can see out but no one can see into the toilet, you would not let that bother you would you?

[60-YEARS-in-Ktown]

Hate to say it,but Grandan is starting to sound like what Johnrox maintains, does not exist on this forum..

[matai]

Right, you can see out but no one can see into the toilet, you would not let that bother you would you?

Of course not, because I wouldn't be using it anyways!

[cv23]

The following statement particularly highlights the notion that most Castanet readers do not know the true cost of construction.

Seeing the City can't seem to be able to build to much of anything on budget its pretty clear that the professionals who prepare the budgets at City Hall also "do not know the true cost of construction" today so why don't we hire, or start to rely, on some people who do? We hire private contractors to perform the work so why don't we look to the people performing the work to provide us with realistic budget figures?
In the private sector an estimator who continuously provides his employer with inaccurate estimates of project costs is let go because he is held accountable for his work, but in the public sector accountability, especially when money is concerned, is virtually no existent.

The fact is that city hall cannot control the cost of contruction materials which fluctuates wildly over time so it is difficult to cost out something which responds to the law of supply and demand. When contractors are busy, the cost of labour goes up, when construction activity is slow, prices can be more competitive. A general contractor cannot know with certainty what his subtrades are going to bill him for what work they do and with the vast array subtrades involved, there is plenty of room for
overruns, unforseen problems with excavation, dewatering, servicing and you name it. A budget is an estimate, based on what what similar projects might have cost in the past, factor in inflation, price of steel, price of copper, price of cement, price of aggregate, price of PVC, cost of labour and all that. The trick is to balance the cost with the need with a projection of future needs, growth projections etc. At the end of the day your building needs to be insured all through construction and lifetime use and insurers need to be assured that the building was built to an acceptable standard so that it does not collapse
(which proved to fatal in a recent mall collapse in Ontario) Besides, most of the cost estimates are performed by the Engineering consultants and Architects based on their experience but cannot be predicted perfectly because you will need to find a contractor to perform the work for that price. If that contractor is from out of town he will need to mobilize all his men and equipment to set up shop in Kelowna because in some circumstances specialist knowledge is need that is not available in Kelowna (or those local contractors are too busy to bid).

Engineers and Architects don't do any actual building so why would anyone rely on them for building cost estimates?

[Grandan]

Engineers and Architects don't do any actual building so why would anyone rely on them for building cost estimates?

How interesting, please tell how you know all this?
I have worked for Engineers for a fair while and I know that your statement is patently false. In some cases engineers build without Architects which seems to be a bone of contention for the Architects. I know General Contractors who build but have never lifted a hammer. I know builders who design but don't know what they are doing.
The way that you get accurate estimates is to prepare accurate construction drawings with all needed requirements spelled out along with specifications for grade of materials, finishes etc. When contractors "bid" on the project, they are all bidding on the same thing, not their interpretation of what is needed. In some cases the "lowest bid" is not accepted because of errors in the bid, or some substitution that was not acceptable to the "owners" ie. the guys paying the bill.
When bids come into an engineers office, a "bid analysis" is conducted to compare line by line what each company is bidding for various aspects of the project. That information is relayed to the "owners" so that they can make an accurate judgement as to the quality of the bid.
There are cases where the owners deem the costs to be too high and will cut back somewhere to save money, Sometimes it is the sq ft of the building, substitute brick with vinyl, granite with arborite and so on.
I know that "'bids" or "quotations" by contractors can vary by double from the lowest to highest bid.
In your world, would you say that all contractors should come up with "equal" bids for the same project? Perhaps we should throw out the bidding process so that we can eliminate that cost from the construction budget and why not just eliminate the Engineers entirely from the process? I am not sure where you got your information, please tell all.