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Your life is not worth...

Re: Your life is not worth...

Postby mexi cali » Mar 26th, 2015, 7:33 pm

Give em the tray. Point them to the Johnny Blue. Hold the door. But, if you have a baseball bat that they don't see and all they have is less than a gun then, "hit for the fence Mearle" Or words to that effect.
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Re: Your life is not worth...

Postby mexi cali » Mar 26th, 2015, 7:35 pm

...I'm not saying anyone, especially some Minimum wage employee should take any risk, or feel obligated to


But hey! If you're makin twenty or more an hour then.............
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Re: Your life is not worth...

Postby Swoop » Mar 26th, 2015, 7:37 pm

...I'm not saying anyone, especially some Minimum wage employee should take any risk, or feel obligated to

mexicalidreamer wrote:But hey! If you're makin twenty or more an hour then.............


...no, certainly not saying anything of the sort either - although I would have thought that would be obvious...
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Re: Your life is not worth...

Postby mexi cali » Mar 27th, 2015, 1:34 am

Nope, not obvious. The inference was pretty clear.
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Re: Your life is not worth...

Postby Puddlejumper40 » Mar 27th, 2015, 7:24 am

mexicalidreamer wrote:Give em the tray. Point them to the Johnny Blue. Hold the door. But, if you have a baseball bat that they don't see and all they have is less than a gun then, "hit for the fence Mearle" Or words to that effect.


I wouldn't think this is the best advice. You will be charged with some type of assault or if you hit them from behind, they fall, hit their head and ultimately die, you will get charged for their death.

From my understanding, you are only allowed to defend yourself with the same force as being used against you. I know, it's bullsh*t, but this is not the United States.

Take one of the previous posts about the Quebec man shooting the robber and ending up in jail. You are NOT allowed to keep a loaded weapon behind your counter in case you are robbed and allowed to use the weapon to protect your property.

You can also get in trouble for carrying "self defence" weapons on you to protect yourself from an attack. Certain items are "okay" to carry, such as a pocket knife, cane or walking stick as these are all tools you can use in everyday life and are NOT being carried as self defence weapons. But, if you are attacked, you could use the above mentioned "tools" to protect yourself if you are physically attacked first.

An example of what you are not allowed to carry but you can buy easily at certain stores in Canada is an extendable baton. It has zero use as a tool. It is a weapon, period. It's amazing that stores sell these in Canada. A store in Kelowna sold these not too long ago....
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Re: Your life is not worth...

Postby nikonfan » Mar 27th, 2015, 11:06 pm

You have to feel sorry for the mom and pop shops that lose a ton of product to shoplifting and the odd robbery. Is it a good idea to protect your property and risk harm to yourself? No probably not but 100% understandable when you are barely scraping by and some low life steals right out of your pocket and there is no restitution even if they are caught.
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Re: Your life is not worth...

Postby Puddlejumper40 » Mar 28th, 2015, 9:26 am

nikonfan wrote:You have to feel sorry for the mom and pop shops that lose a ton of product to shoplifting and the odd robbery. Is it a good idea to protect your property and risk harm to yourself? No probably not but 100% understandable when you are barely scraping by and some low life steals right out of your pocket and there is no restitution even if they are caught.



I feel sorry for any of them losing product to theft. You should be able to defend your business if you so choose. If someone was caught stealing and being held down by people waiting for the police to show up, I would not feel sorry for the theif if their hand "accidentally" was stomped on and broken..... Sh*t happens in a scuffle.... Best hope no video cameras are around though...
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Re: Your life is not worth...

Postby GordonH » Mar 28th, 2015, 10:42 am

nikonfan wrote:You have to feel sorry for the mom and pop shops that lose a ton of product to shoplifting and the odd robbery. Is it a good idea to protect your property and risk harm to yourself? No probably not but 100% understandable when you are barely scraping by and some low life steals right out of your pocket and there is no restitution even if they are caught.


Puddlejumper40 wrote:I feel sorry for any of them losing product to theft. You should be able to defend your business if you so choose. If someone was caught stealing and being held down by people waiting for the police to show up, I would not feel sorry for the theif if their hand "accidentally" was stomped on and broken..... Sh*t happens in a scuffle.... Best hope no video cameras are around though...


If the owner of the business want go after or defend his or her stuff, so be it.

Just don't be asking his or her minimum wage employee's to do the same thing.
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Re: Your life is not worth...

Postby Swoop » Mar 28th, 2015, 10:53 am

nikonfan wrote:You have to feel sorry for the mom and pop shops that lose a ton of product to shoplifting and the odd robbery. Is it a good idea to protect your property and risk harm to yourself? No probably not but 100% understandable when you are barely scraping by and some low life steals right out of your pocket and there is no restitution even if they are caught.


Puddlejumper40 wrote:I feel sorry for any of them losing product to theft. You should be able to defend your business if you so choose. If someone was caught stealing and being held down by people waiting for the police to show up, I would not feel sorry for the theif if their hand "accidentally" was stomped on and broken..... Sh*t happens in a scuffle.... Best hope no video cameras are around though...

GordonH wrote:If the owner of the business want go after or defend his or her stuff, so be it.

Just don't be asking his or her minimum wage employee's to do the same thing.


...why do you keep pushing the agenda of store owners telling employee's the should do this? - it's the exact opposite, and employee's are in trouble if they do confront someone...
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Re: Your life is not worth...

Postby FreeRights » Mar 28th, 2015, 10:56 am

First, for the record, BC liquor store employees do receive robbery/theft training.

Swoop wrote:...maybe now's a good time to clarify the context...I'm not saying anyone, especially some Minimum wage employee should take any risk, or feel obligated to do so...what I am saying, is why, if that employee decides to take it upon himself to intervene and stop a criminal act, is that employee vilified for ultimately standing up for what's right?...it's his decision, which is exactly why employers have made policies clearly outlining that they do not want employees to take those risks - is because if they don't, they'll be held liable for the employee should anything untoward happen - doing their due diligence to remove them from being held accountable, which again, I understand...change the situation slightly to maybe someone interrupting a purse snatching of an elderly woman - hailed as a hero, yet because it's a gas station or liquor store, the employee's in the wrong...

These policies exist for the exact reason you stated, liability, but also for safety. If these robbery/intervention policies did not exist, then that facility would fail to have appropriate workplace safety policies for their employees.

Of course some stores have staff who are permitted (and expected) to intervene, but these staff members are far better trained in apprehending a combative person than a regular staff member, and even they make mistakes.

Policies exist for a reason. If you want to be a hero when you're off duty, that's your business, but when you are working in uniform, representing the brand, and responsible for other peoples' safety, you'll follow the policies or get fired. Remember, this associate intervened with the help of a customer. That customer's safety was also at risk inside the store.

You shouldn't be hailed a hero if you open your employer up to massive amounts of liability, put yourself, your customers, and your coworkers at risk, and willfully disregard company policy and procedure.

Puddlejumper40 wrote:From my understanding, you are only allowed to defend yourself with the same force as being used against you. I know, it's bullsh*t, but this is not the United States.

In any situation, your force has to be proportionate to the imminent threat or force used against you or another person. Meaning, if someone with a knife is trying to stab you and you are unable to disengage, your level of force should be proportionate. If you take the knife from him, then that particular threat changes. It's not complicated, and people absolutely have to be responsible for their reaction.
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Re: Your life is not worth...

Postby FreeRights » Mar 28th, 2015, 10:58 am

Puddlejumper40 wrote:I feel sorry for any of them losing product to theft. You should be able to defend your business if you so choose. If someone was caught stealing and being held down by people waiting for the police to show up, I would not feel sorry for the theif if their hand "accidentally" was stomped on and broken..... Sh*t happens in a scuffle.... Best hope no video cameras are around though...

Yet, as some store security events have shown, store owners/agents are not exempt from use of force laws.

With the convenience store theft in Quebec, the storeowner put others at risk by discharging that firearm.
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Re: Your life is not worth...

Postby jimmy4321 » Mar 28th, 2015, 11:00 am

In Canada, defending yourself and property can get you in deep crap.
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Re: Your life is not worth...

Postby FreeRights » Mar 28th, 2015, 12:29 pm

jimmy4321 wrote:In Canada, defending yourself and property can get you in deep crap.

Defending yourself won't necessarily. Lots of people have done it and compartatively speaking, a fairly low value of people get in "crap" for it.
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Re: Your life is not worth...

Postby jimmy4321 » Mar 28th, 2015, 1:12 pm

"Fairly Low" is high enough
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Re: Your life is not worth...

Postby FreeRights » Mar 28th, 2015, 1:55 pm

jimmy4321 wrote:"Fairly Low" is high enough

Is it?

Most of those people who have gotten "crap" for defending themselves did so in such a manner that they should have gotten "crap" for.

To be fair, we absolutely need limits. Without limits, a shoving match would turn into a gunfight pretty quick.
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