Downtown Highrise A Go? Lack of FD Resources?

[Queller]

Had an interesting discussion with a volunteer fire fighter tonight ...

He pointed out that we have buildings taller than this already ... and while the development permit covers the "form & function" of the structure it still requires a building permit which entails having the inspector make certain that it fits standards set out by the NFPA ... fire resistant walls, fireproof stairwells, sprinkler systems etc ...

As for my bringing up the Grenfell Tower fire ... I learned that by having the cladding on that building basically made it a torch that enveloped the building in fire which the went into each dwelling ... this is not something that we'll have to worry about here

Yes, your volunteer firefighter friend is correct. The building will meet City of Kelowna guidelines, which are based on the BC building code, and NFPA and ULC standards for firewalls, sprinklers, etc. However, NFPA includes many standards, and it is the standard related to the Fire Department operations itself that the local FD does not meet. The NFPA standard for FD operations in an urban / semi-urban City requires 42 firefighters to respond in the initial stages of a fire in a highrise to get it under control quickly. The City and FD are well aware that they do not meet all of this standard, they have chosen to meet it for some things (building, water systems, etc) and not others (FD response). That's the City's risk management in action, I guess. The part I have difficulty with is, either meet all of the standards, or stop approving highrises if you know full well that you are incapable of responding the minimum required FD resources!

Again, NFPA is the only internationally recognized standard, double talk about "best practices", "comparables", "regional partners", etc, tend to not hold up in a court of law! NFPA has and will continue to be referred to as the Industry Standard for fire safety and Fire Department operations.

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/AboutT ... on.pdf.pdf

[dle]

Had an interesting discussion with a volunteer fire fighter tonight ...

He pointed out that we have buildings taller than this already ... and while the development permit covers the "form & function" of the structure it still requires a building permit which entails having the inspector make certain that it fits standards set out by the NFPA ... fire resistant walls, fireproof stairwells, sprinkler systems etc ...

As for my bringing up the Grenfell Tower fire ... I learned that by having the cladding on that building basically made it a torch that enveloped the building in fire which the went into each dwelling ... this is not something that we'll have to worry about here

Yes, your volunteer firefighter friend is correct. The building will meet City of Kelowna guidelines, which are based on the BC building code, and NFPA and ULC standards for firewalls, sprinklers, etc. However, NFPA includes many standards, and it is the standard related to the Fire Department operations itself that the local FD does not meet. The NFPA standard for FD operations in an urban / semi-urban City requires 42 firefighters to respond in the initial stages of a fire in a highrise to get it under control quickly. The City and FD are well aware that they do not meet all of this standard, they have chosen to meet it for some things (building, water systems, etc) and not others (FD response). That's the City's risk management in action, I guess. The part I have difficulty with is, either meet all of the standards, or stop approving highrises if you know full well that you are incapable or responding the minimum required FD resources!

Again, NFPA is the only internationally recognized standard, double talk about "best practices", "comparables", "regional partners", etc, tend to not hold up in a court of law! NFPA has and will continue to be referred to as the Industry Standard for fire safety and Fire Department operations.

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/AboutT ... on.pdf.pdf

Thanks for this info. I think I'll stick with not going higher than 5 floors max personally! Point being, we DON'T know exactly how we would ever get "rescued" any higher than 10 floors and even at that they will be too busy fighting the fire to pluck us out of windows and such - we would be on our own to get out of Dodge the best we can. We DON'T know what each building is made of or what standards it meets if they are allowed to pick and choose what standards they meet. I realize this isn't an everyday occurrence, thank God, but living in condo, or staying in high rise hotels etc, leaves room for many other people, not just you or your family, to make mistakes that result in fire and put your life at risk. I am hoping I can skeedaddle down 5 flights or have a ladder reach me if the stairwell was not accessible but there are no guarantees of course.

I am sticking to my old saw, that seems to somewhat parallel what you are saying Queller, that if the City does not give us a FD that meets ALL the standards then it is lacking, period, and needs to be brought up to the highest standard. I don't see how this is even negotiable - we are either equipped with what is considered safe or we aren't.

[Piecemaker]

I like diversity in design as well and agree "cookie cutter" can be less than exciting to look at. However, I think there is something to be said for having complimentary design elements in an area and I don't think the Ella is going to compliment the nice, more heritage type buildings like the brownstone tone that they have been trying to set, nor do I think the brownstones and lower height buildings will compliment the Ella in that area. I really think it will look odd and out of place.

For example, The Madison is without a doubt my favourite building design in Kelowna, and I think it is perfectly showcased in that area - I think Ella would fit right in with the Madison - two completely different looking designs but complimentary to each other.

The Madison fits into the area it is in because someone thought outside the design box years ago when the library was built. When the library was built there was no end of criticism regarding its unique design. Ditto for the courthouse. There are a number of old buildings in the Ellis/Lawrence area that have no historical value that will likely one day be demolished for higher density, and hopefully nicely designed, buildings. Ideally much of the downtown should one day have business on ground level and housing above.

[Jflem1983]

Mel kotler had a lot to do with the Madison getting built . Too bad the cancer got him . RIP Mel kotler

[noremac]

Before anyone gets too carried away with referencing NFPA Documents, every single one starts with this disclaimer. NFPA is a reference document only, any Governing Body wishing to adopt the NFPA as the rule they wish to use in their jurisdiction, also has the ability to modify the Document as they see fit. City of Vancouver is a prime example.
As far as Developers paying extra when building in Kelowna, that fancy 100' Ladder Truck in Stn. 1 on Enterprise had a large donation made toward it's purchase by the builders of the Dolphins on the waterfront. Was part of the agreement when the application for those high-rises were made.


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[Queller]

Yes, NFPA is a reference standard, with the intention that it be adopted by cities, states, provinces, etc. NFPA has many different representatives, from industry, firefighter, and municipal associations contributing to the standard, with the sole purpose being the minimizing of the loss of life and property. NFPA is a non-profit organization. It does not make or sell anything, (other than the printed standards at cost) it has no vested interests in organizations adopting its standards.
That being said, NFPA standards are frequently adopted throughout Canada and the US, for fire safety systems, staffing guidelines, and firefighting equipment. WorkSafeBC references NFPA in several of its firefighting related sections. The point that is being made here is that NFPA has a standard for highrise firefighting, choosing not to follow it can put a City or Fire Dept in a precarious position. Obviously budget concerns come into play in any FD, but if a City is going to approve 20 storey highrises and make all of the building fire safety systems meet NFPA standards, maybe they should look at working towards having their FD meet that standard as well, and not just in the trucks and gear they buy, but in the actual response by firefighters who will be responding to these buildings!

http://www.nfpa.org/overview

[Queller]

As far as I know, Vancouver Fire meets NFPA response standards for all of the buildings in the City. Vancouver is unique in BC Cities in that it has its own Charter, and does not have to follow the BC Municipal Act, strictly speaking.

[Queller]

Interestingly, the KFDs strategic plan references NFPA standards for dispatching, turnout times, and response. It states that it meets the standard for single family residence fires, then glosses over the fact that midrise and highrise fires require significantly more resources than the FD has, even if the amount of additional firefighters recommended to council were hired!
This plan was approved in principal by council, than shelved at budget time when it actually would have required some funding.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=Kelowna+ ... e&ie=UTF-8

[Queller]

Not sure about developers contributing towards a new ladder truck in Kelowna. Maybe? In any event, ladder trucks themselves don't put out fires, the crews operating them do!
I know that in some cities, Calgary for example, developers are required to contribute towards the cost of a new fire station, if required, new equipment, and even initial staffing costs, until an area is built up, and general taxation can take up the slack. Maybe look at doing this in Kelowna? The City (council in particular, I should say), seems bent on getting developments pushed through, maybe have a harder look at some long term impacts while they're at it!

[TMBOkanagan]

The only way to increase staffing levels for any government employees (firefighter, RCMP, receptionist, building inspector, etc) is to raise taxes and have it approved in the budget. Yet, any time taxes go up the majority of people are opposed and vocal about it. You can't have it both ways.

Also, a 6 story wood frame under construction is definitely more difficult to save in the event of a fire compared to a 10 or 20 storey concrete with a sprinkler system.

[dle]

The only way to increase staffing levels for any government employees (firefighter, RCMP, receptionist, building inspector, etc) is to raise taxes and have it approved in the budget. Yet, any time taxes go up the majority of people are opposed and vocal about it. You can't have it both ways.

Also, a 6 story wood frame under construction is definitely more difficult to save in the event of a fire compared to a 10 or 20 storey concrete with a sprinkler system.

IF the City were to specifically announce that they were raising taxes in order to hire more firemen and police and that the money from those raised taxes actually did go to nothing else but that, I'm not so sure the hue and cry would be as loud.

I think ALL condos and apartments, no matter what their building material, should be built with fire sprinklers in each suite, on each deck and anywhere else the fire department deems would be a good idea. I think the project should be denied if it doesn't have those sprinklers.

I would also like to hear from someone as to whether after-build sprinklers can be installed in older wooden condos and apartments. Perhaps if they can be, a break could be given on insurance costs to entice people to get it done.

[Queller]

Yes, older wooden condo buildings can certainly have sprinkler systems retrofitted, however, this would be up to the occupants/owners of the building. It can be quite expensive and intrusive to retrofit sprinkler systems into existing buildings. Generally, the BC Building Code only requires sprinklers in residential buildings 4 storeys or greater. Which is probably why you see a lot of 3 and 3&1/2 storey buildings in Kelowna...
As for insurance, while there is certainly a decreased risk to life and the building as a whole when sprinkler systems are installed, there is also an increased risk of water damage, due to leaks, accidental activations, vandalism, etc. You would probably have to talk to an insurance broker to see if there would actually be a premium reduction, if you were to retrofit a sprinkler system.

[Queller]

Again, building construction in Kelowna follows the BC Building Code, which is based in a large part on NFPA and ULC standards, for the building itself. The local FD, however, only meets NFPA requirements for responses to fires in single family residences, and only in certain core areas of the City. The FD does not meet NFPA standards for responses to fires in strip malls, multi-family 3-storey apartments, or high-rises, in any areas of the City.

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/AboutT ... on.pdf.pdf

[jasond_71]

I don't think people realize how much taxes would go up. Each fireman probably costs $150,000 with benefits salary etc.
Also, unlike most public sector employees their salaries are bargained with municipality so while most public workers received less than one percent raise a year the fireman received 2 1/2 per year.
That means they will become even more expensive.
I'm pretty sure that is why kelowna is reluctant to hire even more.
This isn't an argument about whether they are worth that, just that the city has to weigh the cost to taxpayers.

[Queller]

Well, the inflation rate for BC has been between 1.7% and 2.3% for the last 6 months, so a raise of less than 1% a year isn't even really keeping up with inflation. Maybe those affected government workers will get a higher raise next time, but who knows? I'm sure there are lots of forums out there elsewhere, discussing for and against the merit of government workers wages and benefits.
The annual tax increase that would be caused by hiring the firefighters in the next few years of the FDs plan works out to less than $25 per year for the average home in Kelowna. Not insignificant, but not a huge amount either.
As was mentioned earlier, maybe the City should specifically identify which portion of a tax increase is going towards hiring more firefighters and/or more police officers, instead of lumping it in with a general tax increase which includes things like renovating City Hall (again), and expensive park bathrooms!

https://inflationcalculator.ca/2017-cpi ... -columbia/