Castanet

Snarf wrote:There are quite a few types of tires, including high performance summer tires, all seasons with just the M+S rating, all weather with the snowflake inside a mountain symbol and then the winter type with strictly a snowflake symbol.

Sure, snowflake winters are the best BUT: slow....the....hell....DOWN! You're still not driving a snowcat vehicle with those on!

Yup pretty much !
For anyone who complains about the lack of snow removal causing accidents...
It's not the snow that causes the accident. When you crash and call ICBC, they will not accept a %100 mother nature claim due to snow. If your car was involved in a crash and your car was moving, then it's not the snows fault. Its yours.
People need to have the right tires for the conditions and the tires need to be in good shape. AND the driver has to drive to conditions.

The town gets tons of accidents during a snow fall and it's not because of the snow, it's because of poor vehicle maintenance and even worse driving.

Snow? In November?? Who'd-a-thunk???
Good gawd - you'd think we just had 3' dumped overnight and are facing Snowmageddon 2017. Every year after the first significant snowfall, this topic gets beaten to death.
We live in Canada. In the winter months - we get snow. Always have - always will.
If you don't equip your vehicle properly before winter driving arrives, well, no one to blame but your own procrastinating self.
Sanding while plowing during a heavy snowfall is pointless and a waste of money as it gets covered no sooner than it gets dispersed. A Zamboni couldn't produce a more slippery surface at stop lines than a series of cars applying engine heat to the surface while idling at a stop and simultaneously packing it under the wheel load weight of hundreds to thousands of pounds. Applying sand in this situation is again pretty much hopeless unless you're one of the first few cars traversing it after the sanding truck has placed it. Sometimes all the sand trucks in the city's fleet can't change the fact that in certain conditions physics dictate that ice is slippery and cars slide on it - so adjust your driving accordingly.

[/quote]Snow can not be shovelled onto the roadway as this has the potential to become a safety hazard.[/quote]

When I was driving a plow truck I found that if I sped up a bit I could put the snow shovelled onto the road back into their driveway.

dle wrote:At the very least get the intersection approaches sanded right after they are plowed - I think that would cut down on a lot of crashes.

Think they have a system:

When does the City sand the road?
Sanding is restricted to areas where it is needed most such as stop signs, curves, hills and school zones due to the high cost and the damage it can inflict on vehicles. However, during icy periods, sand is used on all sections of the road. Winter sand also contributes to very poor air quality in the spring.

I really do remember sand trucks and plows being separate vehicles at one time - I know that makes me older than dirt but what the hey it's all good....

I had posted that back in the olden days the sand truck came behind the plow but I guess they are more modernized now as a couple of people schooled me on that.....

on another thread Treeguy posted:

I don’t think you realize that the trucks lay sand as they plow. Plowing and sanding isn’t done by two separate trucks.

and LTD posted:

They used to lay sand as they plow now they must drive around empty judging by the lack of sand i see anywhere its pathetic and somewhat dangerous.


I think they are both correct nowadays and I'm going to say those plow/sanding combo's are not always dumping sand after the plow and I guess the point I was trying to make was the sand only works if it gets out of the truck onto the ice no matter what vehicle it comes from....that's the part they need to re-work in the system....they say they sand the important, most dangerous spots always - well they might do hills first (but I know some who will say uhuh no they don't as they are climbing back up), but I think intersections are also in need of the important, most dangerous spot designation and should be done after EVERY plowing so if the plow is carrying it's own sand - let 'er rip! If sand is needed everywhere on super icy days, call out the sand trucks to do it if the plows don't carry enough. Dump the stuff at the intersection approaches for sure.

youjustcomplain wrote:

Snarf wrote:There are quite a few types of tires, including high performance summer tires, all seasons with just the M+S rating, all weather with the snowflake inside a mountain symbol and then the winter type with strictly a snowflake symbol.

Sure, snowflake winters are the best BUT: slow....the....hell....DOWN! You're still not driving a snowcat vehicle with those on!

Yup pretty much !
For anyone who complains about the lack of snow removal causing accidents...
It's not the snow that causes the accident. When you crash and call ICBC, they will not accept a %100 mother nature claim due to snow. If your car was involved in a crash and your car was moving, then it's not the snows fault. Its yours.
People need to have the right tires for the conditions and the tires need to be in good shape. AND the driver has to drive to conditions.

The town gets tons of accidents during a snow fall and it's not because of the snow, it's because of poor vehicle maintenance and even worse driving.

I'd like to agree with you 100% but I can't - I've been driving VERY carefully, fully properly equipped, and have still slid on ice when stopping and short of not being moving at all there was no way I could have avoided it. I am an experienced winter driver having lived in BC all my days and sometimes with black ice there is just NOTHING you can do not to slide - even at very slow speeds - it's like watching a slow-mo movie.

I do agree that most of the time it's the driver's actions but not always, not 100%, no way, whether Icky-Bicky says so or not.

Did you read the part about the sensors?
And don't forget this:

we apply liquid magnesium chloride or liquid sodium chloride to some of the main arterial roads and hillsides.

Sparki55 wrote:

There is no way you can brake faster without ABS, it offers a massive advantage, just like winter tires offer an advantage. I wont dive into coefficients of friction but ABS with M+S tires can stop faster than full on winters with no ABS.

Anyway, I agree with your post, drive for the conditions and what you vehicle can handle and you will be just fine.

Actually ABS will extend your stopping distance. The purpose of ABS is NOT to stop faster, but for you to still remain in control of the vehicle while braking.

zerograv wrote:

Sparki55 wrote:

There is no way you can brake faster without ABS, it offers a massive advantage, just like winter tires offer an advantage. I wont dive into coefficients of friction but ABS with M+S tires can stop faster than full on winters with no ABS.

Anyway, I agree with your post, drive for the conditions and what you vehicle can handle and you will be just fine.

Actually ABS will extend your stopping distance. The purpose of ABS is NOT to stop faster, but for you to still remain in control of the vehicle while braking.

Take a physics course if you want to debate this with me.



From the graph one can see that as an object starts to slide, the coefficient of friction is drastically reduced. From this knowledge it would be easy to assume that once a car is sliding (no ABS) the coefficient of friction has dropped and therefore the slide will travel a larger distance. If the car is equipped with a system which allows braking to be applied until an optical sensor (or other sensor) records the tire is locked in place (sliding) then instantly releases to brakes and reapplies them to keep braking the tires will be kept in the maximum coefficient of friction zone; the "break loose" zone. If the coefficient of friction is higher than full slide, the car will come to a stop in a shorter distance.

If this information is not enough and you refute this argument there is plenty of information on break loose coefficients and real life stopping distance calculations to reference.

And all this is true by going by the book, and not the practised craft of vehicle operation.

To those without the learned, practised, craft of all things vehicle, the techno-glorified
vehicles of present are the way to go.
Those that have honed their skills through the love of all things vehicle, it
may not entirely apply.

Through precise pressure modulation of foot to pedal, and seat of the pants feel as to traction
coefficients available, a well practised, vehicle handling crafts-person will, without any doubt.
Outperform the black box technology of todays vehicles.
This bodes true to traction control as well, as these technologies were implemented from the
crafts-person to start with.
ABS is brake modulation, as a computer does the work of that pedal just being panic slammed,
eyes closed, hope for the best scenario, it eases off slightly to benefit traction.
Traction control,
same principal, although, near opposite.
The ever so slight application of brake, to ease torque while still
applying power for less than ideal traction conditions.

(The simplified version)

ABS generally offers improved vehicle control and decreases stopping distances on dry and slippery surfaces; however, on loose gravel or snow-covered surfaces, ABS can significantly increase braking distance, although still improving vehicle steering control

On high-traction surfaces such as bitumen, or concrete, many (though not all) ABS-equipped cars are able to attain braking distances better (i.e. shorter) than those that would be possible without the benefit of ABS. In real world conditions, even an alert and experienced driver without ABS would find it difficult to match or improve on the performance of a typical driver with a modern Anti-lock Braking System-equipped vehicle. ABS reduces chances of crashing, and/or the severity of impact. The recommended technique for non-expert drivers in an ABS-equipped car, in a typical full-braking emergency, is to press the brake pedal as firmly as possible and, where appropriate, to steer around obstructions. In such situations, ABS will significantly reduce the chances of a skid and subsequent loss of control.

In gravel, sand and deep snow, ABS tends to increase braking distances. On these surfaces, locked wheels dig in and stop the vehicle more quickly. ABS prevents this from occurring. Some ABS calibrations reduce this problem by slowing the cycling time, thus letting the wheels repeatedly briefly lock and unlock. Some vehicle manufacturers provide an "off-road" button to turn ABS function off. The primary benefit of ABS on such surfaces is to increase the ability of the driver to maintain control of the car rather than go into a skid, though loss of control remains more likely on soft surfaces such as gravel or on slippery surfaces such as snow or ice. On a very slippery surface such as sheet ice or gravel, it is possible to lock multiple wheels at once, and this can defeat ABS (which relies on comparing all four wheels, and detecting individual wheels skidding). Availability of ABS relieves most drivers from learning threshold braking.



It really isn't always that cut and dry as your stupid graphs is it?

PS: i found the article you ripped that picture from and you might need to reread it because it says the opposite

https://www.quora.com/How-does-ABS-redu ... oretically

(forgive me if this was already mentioned but I skipped over some)

One thing to think about at intersections is that when the wheels apply pressure to the ice it will generate a slick of water as we wait for the light ... and then there is also the heat that is being pushed out the bottom of the car, again creating a glaze of water to reduce friction ...

Intersections are more dangerous than they look ... we have to be smarter than the next guy ...

Lol thanks for explaining what I knew about gravel roads, the title of this thread is crashes around town. I don't know of many roads in town which are gravel.

I grabbed the image off an image search and didn't read the article. I'm well versed enough in physics to understand it.

My point stands for pavement, ABS will significantly reduce sliding distance on slippery surfaces becasue it will hold a higher coefficient of friction, i.e. the road is more sticky

Sparki55 wrote:Lol thanks for explaining what I knew about gravel roads, the title of this thread is crashes around town. I don't know of many roads in town which are gravel.

I grabbed the image off an image search and didn't read the article. I'm well versed enough in physics to understand it.

My point stands for pavement, ABS will significantly reduce sliding distance on slippery surfaces becasue it will hold a higher coefficient of friction, i.e. the road is more sticky

I still contest your original claim of abs on your crap tires vs non abs on good winters.
I challenge you to prove your claim.

Sparki55 wrote:Lol thanks for explaining what I knew about gravel roads, the title of this thread is crashes around town. I don't know of many roads in town which are gravel.

I grabbed the image off an image search and didn't read the article. I'm well versed enough in physics to understand it.

My point stands for pavement, ABS will significantly reduce sliding distance on slippery surfaces becasue it will hold a higher coefficient of friction, i.e. the road is more sticky

We know you are well versed in the physics, you keep telling us you are

If you actually READ, paying special attention to the parts I highlighted in red, you'd notice where it says loose gravel or snow-covered surfaces.....

Maybe you should actually read the article where the picture you stole comes from, it's real world science proving exactly opposite of what you are stating. To try to use a graph from someone else's thesis and try to use it to prove the OPPOSITE is asinine.