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Ban the bike!

Re: Ban the bike!

Postby Omnitheo » Dec 4th, 2017, 1:05 am

Would it not stand to reason that those cyclists aren’t still spending the money they save not having to buy fuel? They’re just finding better investments for it. Should all go into taxes still in the end.

Unless you’re suggesting that cyclists horde their savings like rich people and somehow contribute less to the overall economy?
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Re: Ban the bike!

Postby spooker » Dec 4th, 2017, 5:27 am

Old Techie wrote:
spooker wrote:Roads are paid for in the city by the general tax fund. This general fund is generated mostly by property taxes. As a homeowner, I pay into this fund thus paying for the infrastructure that I use as a cyclist and a driver.

Licensing doesn't pay for roads. Insurance doesn't pay for roads (and no, the $8MM that ICBC gave last year to the province is less than a percentage point of all the monies used for roadways.) There is a portion of gas tax in the lower mainland that does go to Translink. The rest of the gas taxes go to the province and the federal government. The BC portion is not documented so I can't say where that goes. The federal portion is approximately $5B, and $2B flows back to the province to fund a myriad of projects (highways, water systems, tourism, airports etc)


I agree with a lot of what you say, however you are overlooking a rather pertinent detail.

Automobiles pay huge taxes at the gas pump, taxes that when originally implemented were put in place to pay for the infrastructure those vehicles relied upon.

Over time yes that has changed, as things often do when government identifies a cash cow for general revenue, so now the money goes to the feds, who then redistribute it based on some formula to the provinces, at least to my vague understanding. If I'm not completely correct the point is it goes back to government, then said government pays for road improvement projects and such, hence perhaps indirectly, but we do see the money grabbed at the gas pump come back to us, at least a portion of it.

Bicycles don't buy gas so they get to avoid contributing by this means, yet use the same infrastructure. Your argument as to how you view bicycle riders as paying their way, applies to automobiles equally, yet they must pay into the system again at the gas pumps.


The two highlighted sections in my original post explain the problem with your argument.

In addition, how many cyclists are *just* cyclists? I'm like the majority of cyclists, who drive and bike, how do I not pay?
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Re: Ban the bike!

Postby GordonH » Dec 4th, 2017, 9:40 am

Breakdown of taxes on fuel in BC (both gasoline & diesel)
Fuel taxes in BC.jpg
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Re: Ban the bike!

Postby WalterWhite » Dec 4th, 2017, 9:58 am

GVRD taxes breakdown

gvrd-gas-tax.jpg


Unsure of the exact date of this infograph as current GVRD gas prices are around $1.35/l
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Re: Ban the bike!

Postby GordonH » Dec 4th, 2017, 10:12 am

WalterWhite wrote:GVRD taxes breakdown

gvrd-gas-tax.jpg

.0217 cent difference which I go with my link over yours
Unsure of the exact date of this infograph as current GVRD gas prices are around $1.35/l


Here is were the Fed's are double dipping, GST should only go against $1.07 (not tax on tax) that oil companies get which equals .0535 cents on 1 litre of fuel
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Re: Ban the bike!

Postby Rwede » Dec 4th, 2017, 10:14 am

OldBlindDog wrote:
Old Techie wrote:also very confident that the goods bicycle riders rely on to sustain life, are delivered by the same big rigs servicing the rest of us, big rigs which cause the most damage to roadways by the way.

Nice attempt at deflection though.


I am not so confident that big rigs cause the majority of wear on our roads. Most roads don't even have big rigs on them, and they still need to be maintained.


The big rigs do cause most of the roads' deterioration.

That's why the big rigs have to buy additional licensing from municipalities in the form of commercial vehicle decals to help offset the cost of repairing that damage.

I still haven't seen any bikers here explain how they cover the cost of the infrastructure they're demanding. The shot at pedestrians and sidewalks conveniently ignored the fact that developers have to foot the cost of sidewalks through DCCs to attract pedestrians to their communities, costs which are then passed on to the users (new property owners).
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Re: Ban the bike!

Postby Queen K » Dec 4th, 2017, 10:25 am

Yes, but in exchange for footing those costs, developers also expect City Council to be their wet dream and roll over for ugly designs, lack of green space, even yards, and endless applications for variances to the city planning codes.

But why ban bikes again? Think about what you've advocated, ban bikes from kids? Or is there an age ceiling, like ban a bike if they've hit driving age? You can drive? No more bikes. Fines for being caught cycling? Big Brother Bans Bikes!

I'm playing with you Rwede. Usually your thread titles aren't this fun.
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Re: Ban the bike!

Postby spooker » Dec 4th, 2017, 10:55 am

Rwede wrote:I still haven't seen any bikers here explain how they cover the cost of the infrastructure they're demanding. The shot at pedestrians and sidewalks conveniently ignored the fact that developers have to foot the cost of sidewalks through DCCs to attract pedestrians to their communities, costs which are then passed on to the users (new property owners).


I'm guessing my posts get automatically hidden on your screen ...

spooker wrote:Roads are paid for in the city by the general tax fund. This general fund is generated mostly by property taxes. As a homeowner, I pay into this fund thus paying for the infrastructure that I use as a cyclist and a driver.


There a nice quote from a VTPI report in 2004 that states:
Since bicycling and walking impose lower roadway costs than motorized modes, people who rely primarily on nonmotorized modes tend to overpay their fair share of roadway costs and ...


As for sidewalks ... My block got an upgrade years ago that enhanced our street and sidewalks ... I pay an extra $600+ per year for that ... and the number of people that I know on a first name basis because they walk by makes it worth it ... community doesn't drive by in a car, it cycles and walks within earshot ... while I was out putting up my Xmas lights I had fun yelling at a cyclist riding by, "Don't you know it's winter?" ... started a pretty enjoyable conversation with someone I didn't know before ...
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Re: Ban the bike!

Postby Queen K » Dec 4th, 2017, 10:58 am

I can't tell you how many cyclist stop over at my place to talk about the gardens too! But you know, ban the bikes! They're not paying for anything and tearing down the pavement.

Get off my lawn!
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Re: Ban the bike!

Postby spooker » Dec 4th, 2017, 10:59 am

techrtr wrote:As far as I'm concerned, any cyclist who gets hit by a car door is doing something stupid and is just as much at fault as the driver.


What was Patricia Keenan doing stupid?

https://www.castanet.net/news/Kelowna/144167/injured-cyclist-passes

(sorry, didn't catch that statement it was initially posted, had to go back and address it)
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Re: Ban the bike!

Postby 60-YEARS-in-Ktown » Dec 4th, 2017, 11:07 am

One thing here bears mentioning, recreational and transportatio drivers..one group.
Commercial drivers driving for profit another group, they should pay their share. If you make money working out of a building you pay torrent or own it, haul goods onbthe raid for profit, expect to pay some cost.
I know one thing , bikes aren't wearing out our roads.
I'd like to help You OUT,
Which way did You come in??

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Re: Ban the bike!

Postby dirtybiker » Dec 4th, 2017, 11:09 am

I was taught at a very young age to look for people in cars through windows,
mirrors, movements of any kind, even shadows, a flash of brake light/ back-up light, anything that
is a precursor to a vehicle about to move, or be exited from.

Ya know, that thing I've brought up before..

Self preservation along with situational awareness.

Meant with no did-respect.

RIP Ms. Keenan.
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Re: Ban the bike!

Postby spooker » Dec 4th, 2017, 11:30 am

dirtybiker wrote:I was taught at a very young age to look for people in cars through windows,
mirrors, movements of any kind, even shadows, a flash of brake light/ back-up light, anything that
is a precursor to a vehicle about to move, or be exited from.

Ya know, that thing I've brought up before..

Self preservation along with situational awareness.

Meant with no did-respect.

RIP Ms. Keenan.


Sure, and everything you can do will still never stop that "one" situation that you have no control over ... what were you taught as an early driver/passenger about checking for traffic when opening your door?

When we were young and learning how to ride on the roads they didn't have window tinting as a "standard feature" ... the headrest wasn't some mammoth thing that blocked the Farah Fawcett hairdos ... these aren't excuses for not looking, these are the reasons why it's not that simple anymore ... and did I point out the fact that back then we might have been going 15kph while now we're trying to scan parked cars at 25kph+ at the same time as making sure the drivers to our left aren't drifting into us?

Want to not get doored? simple ... take the lane!
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Re: Ban the bike!

Postby spooker » Dec 8th, 2017, 11:16 am

For those that were interested ... the author of the first article has a followup piece in the same vein, with the same lack of regard for the facts ...

http://business.financialpost.com/opinion/lawrence-solomon-killer-bikes-how-urban-cycling-policies-made-city-streets-less-safe
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Re: Ban the bike!

Postby GenesisGT » Dec 8th, 2017, 12:04 pm

spooker wrote:For those that were interested ... the author of the first article has a followup piece in the same vein, with the same lack of regard for the facts ...

http://business.financialpost.com/opinion/lawrence-solomon-killer-bikes-how-urban-cycling-policies-made-city-streets-less-safe


Not sure what the "lack of regard for the facts" refers to.

Vehicles have gone through much redesign and legislated changes to make them safer for the occupants, in case of accidents. This has reduced the number of fatalities and degree of injuries associated with accidents. This has been done at a cost to the consumer but pays off in the savings associated with medical treatment, missed work, repairs, etc..

When it comes to bicycles the only change over the years that I have seen that are mandatory, are helmets, reflectors, a bell and maybe a light. What are cyclists doing to reduce fatalities and degree of injuries.

Maybe it is time to look at what would make a safer bicycle. Would it be safer if cyclists used trikes, instead of bikes. is there more apparel that should be mandatory for a cyclist (gloves, boots, elbow pads, helmets like motorcyclists wear, bikes have disc brakes, etc)

Cyclists want everyone to pay for a safer environment for cycling, but what can cyclists bring to the table to show they are willing to contribute more to their own safety, like vehicle drivers have over the years.
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