51336

Firefighters maxed out

Re: Firefighters maxed out

Postby lesliepaul » Dec 12th, 2017, 11:33 pm

Hmmm................I think the cure is very simple. Just ask them how much of a raise or more paid time off they would need to feel better.
lesliepaul
Übergod
 
Posts: 1138
Likes: 4 posts
Liked in: 928 posts
Joined: Aug 7th, 2011, 1:56 pm

Re: Firefighters maxed out

Postby dirtybiker » Dec 13th, 2017, 1:27 am

Makes me smile when I see a Fire Crew out and about being with their machine, the Fire Truck.
A nice wash, some polishing, lube this, grease that. Big investment we have, Nice to see that
investment being taken care of.
Getting to know everything about it, where everything is. How everything works.
How she handles, goes, stops, turns, All Crew, in and out like second nature
They pack more equipment for a multitude of different scenarios that may be confronted
than some seem to realize.

Anything, anytime !

Matters not why they show...usually first....'ya, 'cause of that ready thing.

(No this is not a paid sevice announcement!)

:130: Keep up the fantastic work, with style.
"Don't 'p' down my neck then tell me it's raining!"
dirtybiker
Guru
 
Posts: 6339
Likes: 5359 posts
Liked in: 2763 posts
Joined: Mar 8th, 2008, 7:00 pm
Location: Central OK

Re: Firefighters maxed out

Postby Jhunter199 » Dec 13th, 2017, 9:03 am

Achtung wrote:Ok so I understand everyone is entitled to their opinion but come on people at least have the facts before you spout off with a bunch of nonsense. The interesting thing is that most of the uninformed but very vocal negative posters can be found spreading their negativity on nearly every thread. It gets old. As for this thread...the reason you often see two ambulances at a scene is because they are two differently equipped ambulances with two differently trained attendants. It says right on the side. BLS is basic life support. ALS is advanced life support. Some calls require only BLS and some require both. As for the FIre Dept responding....they are trained to a first responder level. They can administer life saving care when needed but they can and often are cancelled by B.C. ambulance if they are either not required or the call is not as serious after patient contact has been made. For those of you fortunate enough to never have been a part of a major traumatic call such as a cardiac arrest, serious car accident, attempted suicide etc, please don’t blindly post that it’s a waste when they see a fire truck and two ambulances at a first response call. If they are needed then every one of them will be busy. A cardiac arrest isn’t simply treated by turning on a defibrillator. It usually takes 2-3 people doing 2 minute rounds on compressions, someone doing ventilation’s with a BVM, someone administering an IV, someone preparing neccecary drugs...etc. it’s a crazy situation that two people cannot effectively remedy. If they are not then they will be released from the scene. As for they post about sending fire guys to medical stuff in a car instead of the big truck...at their main hall they do send a two man crew to medical calls in a pickup. At their other halls they don’t split the 4 person crews in case a more serious call comes in they will be able to respond immediately.


Well Said!!!!
Jhunter199
Fledgling
 
Posts: 288
Likes: 257 posts
Liked in: 339 posts
Joined: Apr 18th, 2013, 10:11 pm

Re: Firefighters maxed out

Postby seewood » Dec 13th, 2017, 9:12 am

Jhunter199 wrote:Achtung wrote:Ok so I understand everyone is entitled to their opinion but come on people at least have the facts before you spout off with a bunch of nonsense. The interesting thing is that most of the uninformed but very vocal negative posters can be found spreading their negativity on nearly every thread. It gets old. As for this thread...the reason you often see two ambulances at a scene is because they are two differently equipped ambulances with two differently trained attendants. It says right on the side. BLS is basic life support. ALS is advanced life support. Some calls require only BLS and some require both. As for the FIre Dept responding....they are trained to a first responder level. They can administer life saving care when needed but they can and often are cancelled by B.C. ambulance if they are either not required or the call is not as serious after patient contact has been made. For those of you fortunate enough to never have been a part of a major traumatic call such as a cardiac arrest, serious car accident, attempted suicide etc, please don’t blindly post that it’s a waste when they see a fire truck and two ambulances at a first response call. If they are needed then every one of them will be busy. A cardiac arrest isn’t simply treated by turning on a defibrillator. It usually takes 2-3 people doing 2 minute rounds on compressions, someone doing ventilation’s with a BVM, someone administering an IV, someone preparing neccecary drugs...etc. it’s a crazy situation that two people cannot effectively remedy. If they are not then they will be released from the scene. As for they post about sending fire guys to medical stuff in a car instead of the big truck...at their main hall they do send a two man crew to medical calls in a pickup. At their other halls they don’t split the 4 person crews in case a more serious call comes in they will be able to respond immediately.
Well Said!!!!

Yeup, well said, been there many times over the years..including going into the emerg. doing compressions while Dr.'s try to resuscitate.
If the jurisdiction wants to pay for the first responder program for the FF's, all the power to them. Some don't and that is fine but may have consequences if the ambulances are tied up on calls or at the hospital. I have seen ambulances parked halfway between jurisdictions as I'd believe all ambulances are tied up in one and cover is required.
I am not wealthy but I am rich
seewood
Board Meister
 
Posts: 693
Likes: 1020 posts
Liked in: 677 posts
Joined: May 29th, 2013, 2:08 pm

Re: Firefighters maxed out

Postby Bsuds » Dec 13th, 2017, 9:27 am

Achtung wrote:.the reason you often see two ambulances at a scene is because they are two differently equipped ambulances with two differently trained attendants. It says right on the side. BLS is basic life support. ALS is advanced life support.


Then it might be more cost effective to either have all attendants trained fully to handle any situation or use the BLS only for transport etc. instead of sending 2 ambulances for every call because they don't know what they might find when they get there. (I know in a perfect world)
My Wife just stopped and said "you weren't even listening were you?"

I thought to myself, that's a weird way to start a conversation.
User avatar
Bsuds
The Wagon Master
 
Posts: 42017
Likes: 8064 posts
Liked in: 10245 posts
Joined: Apr 21st, 2005, 10:46 am

Re: Firefighters maxed out

Postby Achtung » Dec 13th, 2017, 12:22 pm

The ALS crews are highly trained with a specialized skill set. It would be a huge and costly endeavor to have all BLS crews trained to that level. The ongoing wage hike alone would be substantial. This is why there are only a couple ALS cars for a big area. They do not get sent to every call either. A pre-set criteria attaches them to a call and if the BLS crew arrives and doesn’t need them they are released or if ALS arrives first and the call can be handled by a BLS crew they will hand it off and get back in service. The world of emergency services is absurdly unpredictable and often minutes or even seconds count. That is why ALS and BLS are sent immediately if the initial call dictates they may be required. It may take the ALS car 20+ mins to arrive if they are coming from lake country. That could mean a life if the patient is critical. This is also why you see multiple fire trucks responding to a minor fire. Often a caller will only say they think their neighbors house is on fire. If only one truck went and discovered that it was in fact on fire the additional responding trucks would be too late to save the house or anyone in it. Same goes for police as well. A report of a weapon needs to be responded to in force. If it turns out as false then they immediately return to service. This is why you often see police/fire/ambulance suddenly turn off their lights and siren. It’s because they were updated by their dispatchers or a first arriving unit and they are no longer needed
Achtung
 
Posts: 2
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 1 post
Joined: Dec 12th, 2017, 10:38 pm

Re: Firefighters maxed out

Postby Ktown77 » Dec 13th, 2017, 9:44 pm

Achtung wrote:Ok so I understand everyone is entitled to their opinion but come on people at least have the facts before you spout off with a bunch of nonsense. The interesting thing is that most of the uninformed but very vocal negative posters can be found spreading their negativity on nearly every thread. It gets old. As for this thread...the reason you often see two ambulances at a scene is because they are two differently equipped ambulances with two differently trained attendants. It says right on the side. BLS is basic life support. ALS is advanced life support. Some calls require only BLS and some require both. As for the FIre Dept responding....they are trained to a first responder level. They can administer life saving care when needed but they can and often are cancelled by B.C. ambulance if they are either not required or the call is not as serious after patient contact has been made. For those of you fortunate enough to never have been a part of a major traumatic call such as a cardiac arrest, serious car accident, attempted suicide etc, please don’t blindly post that it’s a waste when they see a fire truck and two ambulances at a first response call. If they are needed then every one of them will be busy. A cardiac arrest isn’t simply treated by turning on a defibrillator. It usually takes 2-3 people doing 2 minute rounds on compressions, someone doing ventilation’s with a BVM, someone administering an IV, someone preparing neccecary drugs...etc. it’s a crazy situation that two people cannot effectively remedy. If they are not then they will be released from the scene. As for they post about sending fire guys to medical stuff in a car instead of the big truck...at their main hall they do send a two man crew to medical calls in a pickup. At their other halls they don’t split the 4 person crews in case a more serious call comes in they will be able to respond immediately.


You have a lot of valid points and yes some people here are making statements without fact or details... opinions are emotional for sure.
As for the response of all emergency personnel, we cant forget that the person making the call for help is likely very excited and doesn't know all the factors of a particular situation... "is the person breathing?" "by the color of the smoke is it a big fire or small fire?" "does the person have a weapon?" In many cases the caller may not know, so to error on the side of caution there are protocols to determine what vehicles and people to send. Sometime that results in what appears to be overkill.

dirtybiker likes this post.
Ktown77
 
Posts: 2
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 2 posts
Joined: Dec 10th, 2017, 4:50 pm

Re: Firefighters maxed out

Postby Ktown77 » Dec 13th, 2017, 10:06 pm

Kelowna is a busy city for all emergency responders and hospital staff. I'm quite certain that the BC Ambulance Service, RCMP and KGH will tell you that their staff are maxed out too. As for the fire department, statistics show that like similar sized city fire departments, they do about 67% medical calls to 33% fire/ rescue calls.
Statistics from 2004, 2012 and 2014 also show that the Kelowna Fire Department does about 25% more calls over all than firefighters in Delta, Kamloops, Prince George, Abbotsford, Coquitlam, Naniamo and Saanich. Statistics are likely the same for ambulance and police staff in these communities.

Comment and complaints have been made in this forum about number of responders seen responding to or at an incident but I've never heard of a person calling the RCMP, Ambulance or Fire department afterward to complain how many people attended when they were the ones having the emergency.

dirtybiker likes this post.
Ktown77
 
Posts: 2
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 2 posts
Joined: Dec 10th, 2017, 4:50 pm

Re: Firefighters maxed out

Postby Starlight123 » Dec 14th, 2017, 4:04 am

Let’s talk about the difference in paramedic training in the ambulance service. There are 5 different types of paramedics that work for the BC Ambulance Service but in this situation, the focus with be on only two, PCP and ACP or the old terms BLS and ALS.

The Primary Care Paramedic, formally known as BLS, involves approximately 2000 hrs of training both through the Justice Insitute of BC or other private schools and within in the BC Ambulance Service once the paramedic is hired. They are trained to work independently in in both non emergent and emergent rolls. PCPs are quite capable in assessing, treating, and transporting patients using a wide variety of medical equipment, medications and intravenous supplies, and transport to the appropriate hospital. They act as the medical authority for the patient and have the ability to add or cancel additional resources to the medical call as they see fit. To add to this, within the next few years. PCP training will become a two year program allowing the expansion of their scope of practice. This will certainly be a benefit to patients outside metropolitan areas that are not serviced by ACPs.

The Advanced Care Paramedic, formally known as ALS, builds on the skill set of the PCPs and involves approximately 2 1/2 years of training including their on Ambulance mentorship. They are dispatched on possibly higher acuity medical or trauma calls to provide a higher skill set of medical procedures and treatments to help provide the best, positive outcome for a sick or injured patient if required.

Why are not all the paramedics trained to the Advanced Care level? By having a limited number of ACPs inables these paramedics to maximize their assessment and advance care skills on a regular basis. This is crucial to promote the best possible outcome for very sick or injured patients and are quite capable of interphasing their treatments with that of a PCP. Both PCPs and ACPs pay for their own training in this province and the difference in pay between PCP to ACP is approximately $6.50 an hour.

So what is the cost of sending one ambulance with 2 paramedics in it to a medical or trauma call? Approximately $740. What’s the cost of sending a fire crew to a medical or trauma call? Approximately $2.600 to $3.600 depending which community you live in.
Last edited by Starlight123 on Dec 14th, 2017, 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Amarow121 likes this post.
Starlight123
 
Posts: 4
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 1 post
Joined: May 22nd, 2012, 3:56 pm

Re: Firefighters maxed out

Postby kelownaobserver » Dec 14th, 2017, 10:04 am

And yet the only time there is change within the ambulance service when it comes to staffing levels is when there is an unfavourable outcome to a politician or their family member.
kelownaobserver
 
Posts: 43
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 14 posts
Joined: Jul 13th, 2006, 2:46 pm

Re: Firefighters maxed out

Postby Sinyk » Dec 15th, 2017, 9:27 am

Achtung wrote:This is also why you see multiple fire trucks responding to a minor fire. Often a caller will only say they think their neighbors house is on fire. If only one truck went and discovered that it was in fact on fire the additional responding trucks would be too late to save the house or anyone in it.


There is more to it than that. Read Section 31.23(4) of the worksafebc ohs guidelines regarding entry into buildings.

https://www.worksafebc.com/en/law-policy/occupational-health-safety/searchable-ohs-regulation/ohs-guidelines/guidelines-part-31

In short, if there is a fire, the first crew on scene is only allowed to attack the fire for 10 minutes without backup. If a second truck does not arrive in 10 minutes, the attack must be terminated until backup arrives, leaving the first crew to only fight the fire from the outside of the building.
Sinyk
 
Posts: 17
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 2 posts
Joined: Dec 4th, 2009, 1:01 pm

Re: Firefighters maxed out

Postby youjustcomplain » Dec 15th, 2017, 9:59 am

Sinyk wrote:There is more to it than that. Read Section 31.23(4) of the worksafebc ohs guidelines regarding entry into buildings.

https://www.worksafebc.com/en/law-policy/occupational-health-safety/searchable-ohs-regulation/ohs-guidelines/guidelines-part-31

In short, if there is a fire, the first crew on scene is only allowed to attack the fire for 10 minutes without backup. If a second truck does not arrive in 10 minutes, the attack must be terminated until backup arrives, leaving the first crew to only fight the fire from the outside of the building.


This is correct. Fire departments must only enter a building for interior operations (attack or search) for up to 10 minutes unless there is a team available to rescue them, should things come to that. That said, who among us, wants to add more risk to their lives for up to 10 minutes? Nobody.

When a fire of any size is reported in a structure, it requires multiple apparatus and crews to help reduce some of the risks that the firefighters put themselves in, in attempt to save a strangers house and occupants.

In short, multiple trucks are a requirement.

dirtybiker likes this post.
youjustcomplain
Board Meister
 
Posts: 644
Likes: 165 posts
Liked in: 364 posts
Joined: Jun 14th, 2016, 12:56 pm

Re: Firefighters maxed out

Postby Ken7 » Dec 15th, 2017, 3:35 pm

gman313 wrote:yep just take a look at KGH there are always a ton of ambulances with the paramedics waiting to transfer their patients.


I think it's time they have to review what the actual job is of each group, Ambulance, Fire, Police and have them do their jobs. IF the hold up with ambulances at the hospital is a problem, figure it out why. Hire these bed runners and stop and drop them if they are just bed cabs.

Never seen before sending a Fire truck with a crew to a senior at 0400 hrs, as they have chest pains. Do ambulances shut down at midnight or what?

Why does every accident have at least one firetruck and a ambulance?? Can't the tow truck operator sweep up broken glass? This has always made me shake my head.

It appears to me that the Fire department had to prove the worth years ago must have been a tough contract to settle. Firemen should be at the hall waiting for a fire call. If there is a need for more Doctors and bed, build another hospital and put medics and ambulances back where they belong.

ICBC could save money by pulling all those resources off a two vehicle accident. They still do it in other jurisdictions.
User avatar
Ken7
Guru
 
Posts: 6284
Likes: 3421 posts
Liked in: 2377 posts
Joined: Sep 30th, 2007, 4:09 pm

Previous

Return to Central Okanagan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests