51807

Flood Review

Re: Flood Review

Postby swamp1967 » Jan 30th, 2018, 8:03 pm

Maybe I missed it in this thread, but a couple of comments about flood reviews. One, doing some Google searches, it became clear that Kelowna did not call for a flood review as other municipalities did:

Penticton: https://globalnews.ca/news/3513012/penticton-mla-calling-for-okanagan-lake-management-review/

West Kelowna: https://www.pentictonwesternnews.com/news/west-kelowna-calls-for-provincial-review-of-flood-factors/

District of Coldstream: https://www.castanet.net/news/Vernon/205350/Coldstream-flood-review

Secondly, the Province started their review, very late in the game with recommendations expected by April. https://www.kelownacapnews.com/news/b-c-to-review-2017-flooding-wildfire-seasons/

Apart from Vernon Creek, I feel that Kelowna's council and staff have not taken leadership in attempting to address future flood issues in Mission Creek, Mill Creek, etc and of course Okanagan Lake. This is odd as we suffered more than any other area in the valley. Also, the Province's review is happening so late, no recommendations can be acted upon before spring runoff starts again. Lots of missed opportunities to try to fix these issues again.

Frisk likes this post.
swamp1967
 
Posts: 61
Likes: 12 posts
Liked in: 12 posts
Joined: Nov 13th, 2010, 10:10 am

Re: Flood Review

Postby Old Techie » Jan 31st, 2018, 9:06 am

^^ How do you "fix" mother nature throwing you a curve?
"Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig."
- Robert A. Heinlein

dirtybiker likes this post.
User avatar
Old Techie
Grand Pooh-bah
 
Posts: 2927
Likes: 2423 posts
Liked in: 4052 posts
Joined: Apr 27th, 2013, 2:47 pm

Re: Flood Review

Postby steve mc » Jan 31st, 2018, 10:09 am

mother nature isn,t the problem she didn,t build the floodgate that was closed.

cv23 likes this post.
steve mc
 
Posts: 96
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 46 posts
Joined: May 15th, 2014, 6:53 am

Re: Flood Review

Postby cv23 » Jan 31st, 2018, 10:18 am

Old Techie wrote:^^ How do you "fix" mother nature throwing you a curve?


Well spending millions on a flood control system only to have operator check snow pack info bi weekly rather than daily and keeping flood prevention gates closed to protect a few fish sure didn't work did it?
User avatar
cv23
Guru
 
Posts: 6939
Likes: 2660 posts
Liked in: 1385 posts
Joined: Jul 4th, 2005, 1:59 pm
Location: Kelowna

Re: Flood Review

Postby dirtybiker » Jan 31st, 2018, 10:27 am

cv23 wrote: gates closed to protect a few fish sure didn't work did it?


You said it, the few fish.

The struggling fisheries were able to maintain., instead of flounder
and decline.
"Don't 'p' down my neck then tell me it's raining!"
dirtybiker
Guru
 
Posts: 6134
Likes: 4732 posts
Liked in: 2528 posts
Joined: Mar 8th, 2008, 6:00 pm
Location: Central OK

Re: Flood Review

Postby steve mc » Jan 31st, 2018, 11:23 am

automated headgate can maintain level control by making daily ajustments based on data input,

cv23 likes this post.
steve mc
 
Posts: 96
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 46 posts
Joined: May 15th, 2014, 6:53 am

Re: Flood Review

Postby Old Techie » Jan 31st, 2018, 4:17 pm

steve mc wrote:mother nature isn,t the problem she didn,t build the floodgate that was closed.


And as has been pointed out to you several times now, the larger portion of that winter was far drier than usual, and all indicators pointed toward drought conditions ahead, a circumstance that did not change until well into April and all of May, at which point in time they couldn't play catch up anymore.

I'd bet good money, had the gate keeper opened the flood gates, and drained the lake down five feet, only to come to the realization that it was a drought year, you would have been first in line ripping him a new one, for daring to open the gates, when all data pointed toward drought.

Conditions such as huge snow pack increase in May aren't the norm, nor is the amount of rain that got dumped to make matters worse. Short of being psychic no normal person could predict those events, based on all the data leading up to that point.

For a person who posted snide remarks implying those in charge are incompetent, you appear to be quite obtuse, given you choose to ignore data, and simply lash out from your soapbox, as some pseudo expert on the matter.

You were the one making condescending remarks about snow pillow data, and suggesting some didn't know how to interpret it.

That graph Glacier posted clearly shows how through to April, the snow was at the bottom, if not lower, than the historical low range mark, and well below the historical average. Do you require assistance interpreting that graph by chance?
"Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig."
- Robert A. Heinlein

dirtybiker likes this post.
User avatar
Old Techie
Grand Pooh-bah
 
Posts: 2927
Likes: 2423 posts
Liked in: 4052 posts
Joined: Apr 27th, 2013, 2:47 pm

Re: Flood Review

Postby Old Techie » Jan 31st, 2018, 4:26 pm

steve mc wrote:automated headgate can maintain level control by making daily ajustments based on data input,


A lot of good that would do you, when said daily data tells you the same thing the graph did, that drought was looming, and by the time that data changed, it was too late to plan for the fluke spring weather we got.
"Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig."
- Robert A. Heinlein
User avatar
Old Techie
Grand Pooh-bah
 
Posts: 2927
Likes: 2423 posts
Liked in: 4052 posts
Joined: Apr 27th, 2013, 2:47 pm

Re: Flood Review

Postby steve mc » Jan 31st, 2018, 4:39 pm

average and below average snow pac are easeier to manage it easier to fill than drain,freshet is from april 1 to july 1 start filling in may don,t start draining in may.
steve mc
 
Posts: 96
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 46 posts
Joined: May 15th, 2014, 6:53 am

Re: Flood Review

Postby Glacier » Jan 31st, 2018, 4:48 pm

steve mc wrote:average and below average snow pac are easeier to manage it easier to fill than drain,freshet is from april 1 to july 1 start filling in may don,t start draining in may.

The lake is continually being drained. It's called the Okanagan river. The Operator was worried that if he drew the lake down below average or even average for April, and May-September were dry, that there would be a water shortage. May was incredibly wet, and he did open up the flood gates, but it was too late. Even with the flood gates wide open, the lake level still rose.

2 people like this post.
User avatar
Glacier
Admiral HMS Castanet
 
Posts: 26172
Likes: 2570 posts
Liked in: 8356 posts
Joined: Jul 6th, 2008, 9:41 pm

Re: Flood Review

Postby cv23 » Jan 31st, 2018, 4:52 pm

Old Techie wrote:A lot of good that would do you, when said daily data tells you the same thing the graph did, that drought was looming, and by the time that data changed, it was too late to plan for the fluke spring weather we got.


The graph is hindsight info.
The daily snow pack levels, daily weather and a five day forecast for Big White are all available on line each and every day for anyone to read but as it has been pointed out that the data given to the gate operator is only collected and processed couple weeks or so.
The graph clearly shows conditions changed substantially in the first two weeks of April. If the operator had been given data updates daily rather than bi-monthly at this most crucial time of the year for gate operation you can bet there would have been a much different outcome with regard to the lake level last year.
User avatar
cv23
Guru
 
Posts: 6939
Likes: 2660 posts
Liked in: 1385 posts
Joined: Jul 4th, 2005, 1:59 pm
Location: Kelowna

Re: Flood Review

Postby steve mc » Jan 31st, 2018, 5:05 pm

with solar and satilite data collection is the only way to go not to mention cheaper and more accurate then manuel reading,if you don,t measure you can,t manage, and default to mother nature as the cause.
steve mc
 
Posts: 96
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 46 posts
Joined: May 15th, 2014, 6:53 am

Re: Flood Review

Postby Old Techie » Jan 31st, 2018, 5:38 pm

All the data collection on earth, isn't going to address the issue of outflow being restricted to a certain amount, when the problem we had for a sustained period of time, was that inflow from Mission Creek alone, was much more than they were able to let out of the lake at the flood gates.

It's tough to drain a lake with a garden hose at one end, when it's being filled with a fire hose at the other.

This doesn't even address any of the concerns that come with the job, such as fish spawning requirements, downstream problems related to flooding, and so on.

It almost seems as though there's this implied view, that the guy can flip the switch and open the gates full bore on a whim, anytime he wishes.

Frankly in my opinion, anyone who is this troubled by what transpired, should consider moving to higher ground, given that so many knowingly opt to live in what is a historical flood plain. Seems to me that two floods in the thirty years I've lived here, isn't all that bad really, given the natural tendencies of much of the area in question.

FWIW I know quite a number of people, who dealt with flooding in Winfield and Oyama. I'm inclined to think that their situation would have been the same regardless of Okanagan Lake level, so who should they blame, if not mother nature?

@cv23 - Regarding your comment about spending hundreds of millions on flood control, as example take New Orleans and the billions they spent on levies, in the quest to keep floods at bay, yet for all those billions spent, all it takes is one hurricane and a storm surge much larger than the levies are designed to take, and you have a flood.

Preventive measures are simply that, preventive measures, they are certainly not a guarantee that there won't ever be an issue, no more than my smoke alarm is a guarantee that the house won't burn down, or that a basement sump pump will guarantee the basement never gets flooded. Sensible measures yes, but guarantees no.
"Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig."
- Robert A. Heinlein

2 people like this post.
User avatar
Old Techie
Grand Pooh-bah
 
Posts: 2927
Likes: 2423 posts
Liked in: 4052 posts
Joined: Apr 27th, 2013, 2:47 pm

Re: Flood Review

Postby cv23 » Jan 31st, 2018, 7:57 pm

Old Techie wrote:@cv23 - Regarding your comment about spending hundreds of millions on flood control, as example take New Orleans and the billions they spent on levies, in the quest to keep floods at bay, yet for all those billions spent, all it takes is one hurricane and a storm surge much larger than the levies are designed to take, and you have a flood.


Check again and you will see I said we spent "millions" not "hundreds of millions" as you falsely state in your post.
No matter how many taxpayer dollars spent they were all wasted if the operator was only given bi-monthly data rather than daily data at the most crucial part of the flood control season. The change with the snow pack and stream flows had been likely changed for over a week or two before the operator was even informed any change had taken place or started to take place.

Also if check your facts you will also will find that the most serious levy breaches in New Orleans and the resulting flooding were not caused by the severity of the storm surge but caused by age and neglect. The levies were originally designed to handle the storm surge and winds they encountered during Katrina but after decades, in the case of two of the levies full centuries, of neglect they simply were no where near up to their original design specs. The state and federal files are filled with warnings from workers about the aged levy system, but they all fell on deaf ears.
User avatar
cv23
Guru
 
Posts: 6939
Likes: 2660 posts
Liked in: 1385 posts
Joined: Jul 4th, 2005, 1:59 pm
Location: Kelowna

Re: Flood Review

Postby Jhunter199 » Jan 31st, 2018, 8:43 pm

steve mc wrote:automated headgate can maintain level control by making daily ajustments based on data input,


If that was in place last spring the flooding would have been far worse... Remember that the snow pack was below average - normal up until April/May.
Jhunter199
Fledgling
 
Posts: 147
Likes: 169 posts
Liked in: 164 posts
Joined: Apr 18th, 2013, 9:11 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Central Okanagan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests