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Thomson Flats... Goodbye Hills, Hello Urban Sprawl

Thomson Flats... Goodbye Hills, Hello Urban Sprawl

Postby dominik » Jan 10th, 2018, 8:16 am

Okay so there will be a hearing about the next large swath of land to be developed for housing.

https://www.kelowna.ca/our-community/planning-projects/long-range-planning/thomson-flats-area-structure-plan

We are still lacking infrastructure for Kettle Valley, the Upper Mission, The Ponds, Crawford Estates, and yet we are looking at nearly 632 hectars of land to be developed for roughly 3000 homes as per their current application. While we could use inventory, I am amazed how we can even contemplate that massive a development when we are screwing up on infrastructure in town, are unable to get high density living to work, and deal with our traffic.

Sure you could say that this will relieve some of the housing crunch, but personally I'd say it will create a larger issue for this town, one that we have been unable to mitigate over the last 10 years, and won't if we develop on that scale so far out of town.

Thomson Flats to me seems like a decentralized development with little to no amenities near, and limited fire and emergency service coverage which is already stretched to its limits when you consider the upper mission and available first responder options it has. Nevermind the limited road options into the area.

I am not one for stopping development but Urban Sprawl, especially in this City, needs to be stopped. Cities can grow well if it is done with a plan, right now though it looks like Kelowna is growing without any plan at all...
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Re: Thomson Flats... Goodbye Hills, Hello Urban Sprawl

Postby Jflem1983 » Jan 10th, 2018, 8:24 am

dominik wrote:Okay so there will be a hearing about the next large swath of land to be developed for housing.

https://www.kelowna.ca/our-community/planning-projects/long-range-planning/thomson-flats-area-structure-plan

We are still lacking infrastructure for Kettle Valley, the Upper Mission, The Ponds, Crawford Estates, and yet we are looking at nearly 632 hectars of land to be developed for roughly 3000 homes as per their current application. While we could use inventory, I am amazed how we can even contemplate that massive a development when we are screwing up on infrastructure in town, are unable to get high density living to work, and deal with our traffic.

Sure you could say that this will relieve some of the housing crunch, but personally I'd say it will create a larger issue for this town, one that we have been unable to mitigate over the last 10 years, and won't if we develop on that scale so far out of town.

Thomson Flats to me seems like a decentralized development with little to no amenities near, and limited fire and emergency service coverage which is already stretched to its limits when you consider the upper mission and available first responder options it has. Nevermind the limited road options into the area.

I am not one for stopping development but Urban Sprawl, especially in this City, needs to be stopped. Cities can grow well if it is done with a plan, right now though it looks like Kelowna is growing without any plan at all...



Takes 40 minutes to get to dorthea walker from the top of the hill now . Thomson flats ought to add another 20 minutes to that. Progress.

Anything to avoid having useable transportation corridors .

Driving thru red deer the other day. I noticed they have like 10 new overpasses going in on hwy 2. Kelowna is not smart enough to do anything
We don't reach for handouts we reach for those who are down . "Garth Brooks "

You have got to stand for something . Or you will fall for anything "Aaron Tippin"
MAKE ALBERTA GREAT AGAIN

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Re: Thomson Flats... Goodbye Hills, Hello Urban Sprawl

Postby dominik » Jan 10th, 2018, 8:27 am

I truly am beginning to wonder, any common sense neighborhood planning seems to have gone out the window...
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Re: Thomson Flats... Goodbye Hills, Hello Urban Sprawl

Postby Jflem1983 » Jan 10th, 2018, 8:37 am

As long as we have confused ndp types running Kelowna. Nothing will ever get better. We are stuck with a progressive council who work against the people every chance they get.

What will it take to get the southern bypass road built. It was planned in 97 or so. Been waiting 20 odd years.

I hope every one on council finds themself unemployed come election time.
We don't reach for handouts we reach for those who are down . "Garth Brooks "

You have got to stand for something . Or you will fall for anything "Aaron Tippin"
MAKE ALBERTA GREAT AGAIN

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Re: Thomson Flats... Goodbye Hills, Hello Urban Sprawl

Postby dominik » Jan 10th, 2018, 9:08 am

Well I am not going to put a label on it in regards to political affiliations (for that there is too much naivete in all spectrums of political affiliations).

Well Benvoulin will be 3 laned by 2025 I think... (if you aren't banging your head against the desk or screen let me spare you that by doing it for you... :P )

I think bypass roads were planned for 2030 so (sarcasm alert) its all good it will be resolved in 12 years.

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Re: Thomson Flats... Goodbye Hills, Hello Urban Sprawl

Postby Grandan » Jan 10th, 2018, 9:31 am

Jflem1983 wrote:

Takes 40 minutes to get to dorthea walker from the top of the hill now . Thomson flats ought to add another 20 minutes to that. Progress.

Anything to avoid having useable transportation corridors .

Driving thru red deer the other day. I noticed they have like 10 new overpasses going in on hwy 2. Kelowna is not smart enough to do anything

With Thompson Flats being in the Permanent Growth Boundary (correct me if I am wrong) it boggles my mind that the Valley Road Sexsmith (VRNS) area is not in the PGB. That, despite the fact that it is on a bus route, is 10 minutes to the University and 10 minutes to the Airport. The VRNS area is at a crossroads for traffic giving access in 6 cardinal directions, providing direct access to downtown, Hwy 97, Dilworth, Winfield and Clifton. It is one of the most accessible communities in Kelowna.
The amount of traffic is considerable, at last count there were nearly 10,000 vehicles per day through the intersection of Valley and Sexsmith.
The business centre of Kelowna is shifting toward the Sexsmith - Old Vernon Road area, clustered around the University and Airport. The number of new warehouses springing up around Old Vernon Road is truly remarkable.
The North end of Kelowna is shutting down industrial and replacing it with housing, ie. Clement.
It is an easy sell to the unsuspecting to fob off land at Thompson Flats but it does not address the traffic imposed on residents of the area between TF and services in the core of Kelowna.
Waste not

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Re: Thomson Flats... Goodbye Hills, Hello Urban Sprawl

Postby motokelowna1 » Jan 10th, 2018, 1:24 pm

So glad im on the Best side oh sorry West Side as Im sure Gordon and Lakeshore roads can handle the traffic
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Re: Thomson Flats... Goodbye Hills, Hello Urban Sprawl

Postby MCB » Jan 10th, 2018, 1:26 pm

Good biking up in there (I've been using it as a shortcut to get to Crawford for years); likewise it sees a lot of dog walkers, hikers and atvers as well. It'll be sad to see it developed but given the direction Gordon drive has been pushing up the hillside it isn't all that surprising. All that land is owned by a developer so it was honestly only a matter of time and it was great while it lasted. Gordon road is steadily becoming more of a clusterduck and swamp road will be...well...even more swamped (though traffic at 2:00AM is awesome; just saying.)


Just my two cents and observations; worth about half a penny or so. Wonder if they'll retain the trails that run along behind the mountain? (Wishful thinking lol)

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Re: Thomson Flats... Goodbye Hills, Hello Urban Sprawl

Postby phasyluck » Jan 10th, 2018, 8:57 pm

Used to be a good party spot in the 90s and I vaguely remember going up that way a kid in the early 80s for fireworks of sorts. You know back when Kelowna wasn't a greedy developers paradise.
Sure do love Rutland!!

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Re: Thomson Flats... Goodbye Hills, Hello Urban Sprawl

Postby LANDM » Jan 11th, 2018, 7:35 am

Jflem1983 wrote:
dominik wrote:Okay so there will be a hearing about the next large swath of land to be developed for housing.

https://www.kelowna.ca/our-community/planning-projects/long-range-planning/thomson-flats-area-structure-plan

We are still lacking infrastructure for Kettle Valley, the Upper Mission, The Ponds, Crawford Estates, and yet we are looking at nearly 632 hectars of land to be developed for roughly 3000 homes as per their current application. While we could use inventory, I am amazed how we can even contemplate that massive a development when we are screwing up on infrastructure in town, are unable to get high density living to work, and deal with our traffic.

Sure you could say that this will relieve some of the housing crunch, but personally I'd say it will create a larger issue for this town, one that we have been unable to mitigate over the last 10 years, and won't if we develop on that scale so far out of town.

Thomson Flats to me seems like a decentralized development with little to no amenities near, and limited fire and emergency service coverage which is already stretched to its limits when you consider the upper mission and available first responder options it has. Nevermind the limited road options into the area.

I am not one for stopping development but Urban Sprawl, especially in this City, needs to be stopped. Cities can grow well if it is done with a plan, right now though it looks like Kelowna is growing without any plan at all...



Takes 40 minutes to get to dorthea walker from the top of the hill now . Thomson flats ought to add another 20 minutes to that. Progress.

Anything to avoid having useable transportation corridors .

Driving thru red deer the other day. I noticed they have like 10 new overpasses going in on hwy 2. Kelowna is not smart enough to do anything


And then, in another thread, an opposite view is given on essentially the same topic:

Jflem1983 wrote:See a lot of this lately. Not really a fan of densification. Whats everyone think. Should they outlaw lot splitting like some Edmonton neighborhoods do.


Can’t have it both ways. :135:

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Re: Thomson Flats... Goodbye Hills, Hello Urban Sprawl

Postby Jflem1983 » Jan 11th, 2018, 8:02 am

NEED BETTER ROADS.
We don't reach for handouts we reach for those who are down . "Garth Brooks "

You have got to stand for something . Or you will fall for anything "Aaron Tippin"
MAKE ALBERTA GREAT AGAIN
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Re: Thomson Flats... Goodbye Hills, Hello Urban Sprawl

Postby techrtr » Jan 11th, 2018, 8:31 am

Sad what Kelowna is turning into. You know how crappy it looks when you're heading over the Port Mann bridge into Vancouver and all you see is wall to wall houses? That's what Kelowna is starting to look like. I know lots of people want to live here, but there is such a thing a sustainable development. Kelowna was great in the 80's - now it's really starting to suck.
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Re: Thomson Flats... Goodbye Hills, Hello Urban Sprawl

Postby TylerM4 » Jan 11th, 2018, 8:48 am

So a bit of a news flash for y'all - Infrastructure is expanded WHEN or even AFTER it's required, not before. Has always been that way, it's the same everywhere, and it will always be that way. And it should be that way. I could just imagine the posts on here if COK spend $5 Million improving infrastructure only to have a developer decide not to proceed. Another "Bridge to nowhere" thread basing council.

Roads don't get expanded until the traffic gets stupid, schools aren't built until there are kids in the area, stores don't open without potential customers surrounding them.

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Re: Thomson Flats... Goodbye Hills, Hello Urban Sprawl

Postby dominik » Jan 11th, 2018, 10:30 am

TylerM4 wrote:So a bit of a news flash for y'all - Infrastructure is expanded WHEN or even AFTER it's required, not before. Has always been that way, it's the same everywhere, and it will always be that way. And it should be that way. I could just imagine the posts on here if COK spend $5 Million improving infrastructure only to have a developer decide not to proceed. Another "Bridge to nowhere" thread basing council.

Roads don't get expanded until the traffic gets stupid, schools aren't built until there are kids in the area, stores don't open without potential customers surrounding them.


Actually Remember the Ponds? There was plenty of roadwork up there before construction started. Then there is Kettle Valley which hit it required density in 2009 and should have had road infrastructure upgrades as per an agreement with the city in 2000. Those still haven't happened.

While I get where you are coming from, an opposite argument could be made, by having the infrastructure in place it would be possible to develop for the right kind of density quickly and develop community plans to which developers would have to adhere to quickly. This is actually how neighborhood developments are done in cities in other countries. So yes it isn't just Kelowna in this case.

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Re: Thomson Flats... Goodbye Hills, Hello Urban Sprawl

Postby AlienSoldier » Jan 11th, 2018, 1:27 pm

dominik wrote:
TylerM4 wrote:So a bit of a news flash for y'all - Infrastructure is expanded WHEN or even AFTER it's required, not before. Has always been that way, it's the same everywhere, and it will always be that way. And it should be that way. I could just imagine the posts on here if COK spend $5 Million improving infrastructure only to have a developer decide not to proceed. Another "Bridge to nowhere" thread basing council.

Roads don't get expanded until the traffic gets stupid, schools aren't built until there are kids in the area, stores don't open without potential customers surrounding them.


Actually Remember the Ponds? There was plenty of roadwork up there before construction started. Then there is Kettle Valley which hit it required density in 2009 and should have had road infrastructure upgrades as per an agreement with the city in 2000. Those still haven't happened.

While I get where you are coming from, an opposite argument could be made, by having the infrastructure in place it would be possible to develop for the right kind of density quickly and develop community plans to which developers would have to adhere to quickly. This is actually how neighborhood developments are done in cities in other countries. So yes it isn't just Kelowna in this case.


In Germany, I was part of rail projects where we extended subways and added station stops to the middle of forested area's. The government would then slowly sell the land around the stations as a way to payback for the infrastructure (which was much cheaper without predevelopment) and then control how the sprawl occurred. That's why stations are very central and cars and usually not needed in many cities. India has followed the same lead, so has China, and Japan has done it to.

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