The Westcorp hotel....

Re: The Westcorp hotel....

Postby Grandan » Mar 5th, 2018, 6:35 pm

WalterWhite wrote:Not sure if you simply misunderstood my post or took it out of context, but I made no mention of thinking developers have unlimited resources. However, what concerns me is your view that "Joe Public" has no right to "dictate" (I prefer to use the term "voice their opinion") in regards to this, or any planned development - especially one that involves not only public space, but waterfront property while also requiring significant changes to a development plan that was years in the making that the public was urged to have a hand in creating in the first place. Unfortunately your post is the exact perspective that so many have issue with in that from a developer's point of view the public has "no right" to have a say what happens to their (public) land and their community as a whole. I disagree with that perspective.

With a limited attention span and decripid mind I am often unable to articulate a rational response when posting.
I mean no offence but nearly wish to state a point of view which is often the focus of derision because I have represented people who wish to put their money to work or in some case put other people's money to work so that they can have some investment income. Investment income is really important to many people who may not have an income otherwise.
People invest in buildings like Westcorp with the intention of making a return on investment. They are not greedy they are simply looking for a place to park their savings and make a reasonable return, not lose money.
Very few if any projects proceed without the investment of other people's money. If it is for yourself, then, as sure as not there is a lender involved who made sure you had the ability to repay before you were lent the money. With projects like Westcorp, there is a lot of money at stake, nobody wants a loss.
It needs to be pointed out that every developer needs to adhere to every regulation on the books and they are stringent. Unlike the one man show fly by night operations that we see through Kelowna on a regular basis, a developer needs to develop a relationship with city council and the community.
I agree that the public should have a say in what is built, they have no veto power either. I see too often there are objections based on erroneous information, fear or ignorance. Those are not good reasons to be opposed to a project.
A community plan is always a work in process. It is only as good as the parties who agree to the terms of the collective vision.
To use a recent example, Central Green did not turn out the way everyone thought because the dream does not always turn out the way you think it should because it still takes other people's money to work.
One of the objectives of a community plans is to provide positive outcomes for as many residents as possible. There is more at stake than just people's feelings of of what may lost or gained.
Waste not
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Re: The Westcorp hotel....

Postby Grandan » Mar 5th, 2018, 6:40 pm

dle wrote:

"Joe Public" relies on City Council as the "gatekeepers". We vote City Council in. If we don't like the direction our council is taking we don't vote for those people again. Yes, we certainly reserve the right to be able to rely on City council to not throw our official city plan out the window, and we also rely on them to consult and adhere to the advice of our City planning department. What is the point of an OCP if that is how it is ignored? What's the point of having a City planning department? I don't think that's too much of "Joe Public" to ask do you??

It is the duty of the City Council to uphold the interests of the residents who elected them. If it is deemed to be in the public interest to support a change in OCP policy then it is city council not the planning department that is charged with making that change. The OCP cannot predict every outcome for every piece of property in Kelowna nor should it because properties are bought and sold all the time and the uses and predicted uses vary enormously so the one authority we elect to make those decisions do their job in accordance with the information before them not some imagined scenario dreamed up by a 3rd tier planner who lacks both the imagination and money to carry any plan forward.
I see many decisions by council that went against the planning dept over many different city councils since 1981. I have also stood before many different councils and asked for many things on behalf of my clients, that is how it is done.
The planning dept is a technical body and does not have the final say.
The no side lost, better luck next time. Maybe get your guy elected next time. Maybe that will help.
Waste not

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Re: The Westcorp hotel....

Postby Terris » Mar 8th, 2018, 7:26 pm

So decisions based on a good sales pitch to other salespeople trumps rational, professionally educated, well thought out planning??

Someone has some spl'aining to do...

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Re: The Westcorp hotel....

Postby sublime » Mar 8th, 2018, 7:36 pm

Terris wrote:So decisions based on a good sales pitch to other salespeople trumps rational, professionally educated, well thought out planning??

Someone has some spl'aining to do...


The city only makes decisions on now $$$$. If they made decisions based on planning for the future the city wouldn't be in the terrible shape it is in now. If you need an example start with the roads and go down the list. They are playing a game of catch up with the odds stacked against them.

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Re: The Westcorp hotel....

Postby Terris » Mar 8th, 2018, 7:45 pm

Why even go through the charade and cost of having a planning department?

Let's just hand the town over to the real estate "industry"...

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Re: The Westcorp hotel....

Postby LANDM » Mar 9th, 2018, 7:59 am

Terris wrote:Why even go through the charade and cost of having a planning department?
Let's just hand the town over to the real estate "industry"...


Why have an elected council whose specific job is to make the final decision on all matters of consequence?
You believe that we should leave the final decision to salaried employees who are hired to look at one specific area of a development?
Run for office and make that change.
In the meantime, I would never advocate abdicating the responsibility of serious decisions and simply deferring them to staff.
I understand that people both agree and disagree with the final decision but that is who is empowered to make the decision. Leaving the city to a hired youngster in the planning department is an amusing thought though. No difficulties could possibly happen there. [icon_lol2.gif]

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Re: The Westcorp hotel....

Postby Terris » Mar 10th, 2018, 2:25 pm

Exactly...

Why, in this day and age, (It's 2018 people !!), do we still allow uneducated salesmen to be elected into city council?

What, beyond a charming smile and willingness to bend over for a price, do salespeople bring to the city in the way of actual professional long range planning?

In an earlier post, someone referred to Kelowna as looking like a bomb had gone off back in the 90's.

That view is a testament to the previous 50 years of the old boys club dabbling with city council and their best result, which is a mish mash of planning errors, due to a lack of cohesive long term urban planning that would be inclusive of all residents.

Hence the bomb reference...

Now we are witnessing a further destruction and further ghettoization of the town from a new generation of outsiders/"developers" who have learned of our city council's propensity to keep doing the wrong things as long as everyone in "the club" gets a piece of the take.

Where are the affordable housing units oft mentioned as being a prime concern of the residents??

Where are the professional leaders?

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Re: The Westcorp hotel....

Postby Omnitheo » Mar 10th, 2018, 7:21 pm

Actually it looked like a bomb went off because of how flat and grey all the buildings were. Still, drive up Dilworth, it’s not a pretty city you’re getting a great view at. It’s a flat grey field of parking lots and box stores.
"The Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects all Canadians, every one of us, even when it is uncomfortable."
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Re: The Westcorp hotel....

Postby LANDM » Mar 11th, 2018, 7:21 am

Terris wrote:
Why, in this day and age, (It's 2018 people !!), do we still allow uneducated salesmen to be elected into city council?



Sounds like you are in favour of a dictatorial government rather than freely elected individuals. Since you have exclaimed it is 2018 and we should be doing things differently, should we only have certain people allowed to run or allowed to win?

What should the exact criteria be for allowing people to be elected?
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Re: The Westcorp hotel....

Postby Terris » Mar 11th, 2018, 1:31 pm

Omnitheo wrote:Actually it looked like a bomb went off because of how flat and grey all the buildings were. Still, drive up Dilworth, it’s not a pretty city you’re getting a great view at. It’s a flat grey field of parking lots and box stores.


Exactly.

Ask LANDM for the details on who orchestrated that planning fiasco.

LANDM wrote: Sounds like you are in favour of a dictatorial government rather than freely elected individuals. Since you have exclaimed it is 2018 and we should be doing things differently, should we only have certain people allowed to run or allowed to win?

What should the exact criteria be for allowing people to be elected?


A fully informed public would be able to vote in a proper city council. Not all residents here are clued out about the corruptive influences present here in Kelowna.

Let's see up front which candidate is being paid for before the election and by whom, and what exactly their curriculum vitae is that would make them a proper candidate.

The dictatorial councils we have had for the last 3-4 decades, especially the current one and excepting Sharon Shepherd's leadership, have all been bought and paid for by lobbyists for special interest developers.

The Westcorp blunder being the most egregious example to date.

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Re: The Westcorp hotel....

Postby burnedatstake » Mar 11th, 2018, 1:44 pm

i dont understand what the scandal of progress and change is all about. i see and enjoy pictures from in the museum with pictures of what kelowna used to look like. was this city just supposed to keep things as they were? should we still have wood buildings downtown? should those have been saved at all costs? should the mall that is central to our lives have been stopped because there was an orchard there 50+ years ago? things change and whether people like it or not - kelowna has become a city that has too many outside influences and popularity to be ruled by the old stock kelowna faithful. this city will be a 2nd metropolis in bc before you know it. and its about time bc has had that.
democracy means "rule of the people" - capitalism means "rule of the market" - these 2 concepts have a divide that wont be bridged by any amount of patriotic songs or displays.

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Re: The Westcorp hotel....

Postby 60-YEARS-in-Ktown » Mar 11th, 2018, 2:57 pm

burnedatstake wrote:i dont understand what the scandal of progress and change is all about. i see and enjoy pictures from in the museum with pictures of what kelowna used to look like. was this city just supposed to keep things as they were? should we still have wood buildings downtown? should those have been saved at all costs? should the mall that is central to our lives have been stopped because there was an orchard there 50+ years ago? things change and whether people like it or not - kelowna has become a city that has too many outside influences and popularity to be ruled by the old stock kelowna faithful. this city will be a 2nd metropolis in bc before you know it. and its about time bc has had that.

Again, read my signature line below..
I'd like to help You OUT,
Which way did You come in??

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Re: The Westcorp hotel....

Postby dirtybiker » Mar 11th, 2018, 3:28 pm

Escape the big City chaos to build a big City chaos...

makes sense.....NOT !
"Don't 'p' down my neck then tell me it's raining!"

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Re: The Westcorp hotel....

Postby LANDM » Mar 11th, 2018, 7:29 pm

Terris wrote:
Omnitheo wrote:Actually it looked like a bomb went off because of how flat and grey all the buildings were. Still, drive up Dilworth, it’s not a pretty city you’re getting a great view at. It’s a flat grey field of parking lots and box stores.


Exactly.

Ask LANDM for the details on who orchestrated that planning fiasco.

And ask Terris who on earth would have been stupid enough to sell the land.
:smt045

LANDM wrote: Sounds like you are in favour of a dictatorial government rather than freely elected individuals. Since you have exclaimed it is 2018 and we should be doing things differently, should we only have certain people allowed to run or allowed to win?
What should the exact criteria be for allowing people to be elected?


A fully informed public would be able to vote in a proper city council. Not all residents here are clued out about the corruptive influences present here in Kelowna.

Of course....when someone is elected that you don’t approve of, they are either not "proper" or the voting public is "clued out".


Let's see up front which candidate is being paid for before the election and by whom, and what exactly their curriculum vitae is that would make them a proper candidate.

Of course being "proper" would simply mean that they agree with you......and that they would never allow a rainbow crosswalk.
.

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Re: The Westcorp hotel....

Postby fz6adventure » Mar 12th, 2018, 8:54 am

LANDM wrote:Sounds like you are in favour of a dictatorial government rather than freely elected individuals. Since you have exclaimed it is 2018 and we should be doing things differently, should we only have certain people allowed to run or allowed to win?

What should the exact criteria be for allowing people to be elected?


LANDM you seem to throw the gauntlet down with respect to "If you don't like current mayor and council, run yourself". Well here is my 9 point platform.

1) Property Tax
    • Limit by bylaw, property taxation increases to a maximum of the published national inflation rate.

2) Council Transparency & Accountability
    • Institute bi-monthly, open forum, council town-hall meetings
    • Creation of a City of Kelowna ombudsperson office
    • Limit in-camera council meetings to City employee matters and solicitor-client privilege matters
    • Eliminate all fees for Freedom of Information requests

3) Council Conflict of Interest
    • Prohibit all out-of-council meetings and presentations by development or special interest groups
    • Strict enforcement of conflict of interest requirements.

4) Surveillance
    • Remove all external video surveillance cameras

5) Outside Contracting
    • Limit City of Kelowna contracting services to a maintenance only function
    • Accountability - All infrastructure projects by competitive bid

6) Parks
    • Install barbecue grills and picnic tables for day use in selected parks
    • Allow responsible open liquor in selected parks

7) Homeless
    • Rescind bylaws that criminalize the homeless
    • Institute a day-labour sanitation program accessible by the homeless

8) Development
    • Future development in accordance with the Official Community Plan
    • Official Community Plan revisions to referendum

9) Tourism
    • Eliminate the 4% hotel tax
    • Affordability - Create a short term stay municipal campground

I look forward to your vote!

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