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Bill C-45

South Okanagan topics including Summerland, Naramata, Penticton, Okanagan Falls, Oliver, Osoyoos, and Keremeos.

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Re: Bill C-45

Postby Tony » Dec 23rd, 2012, 5:47 am

First off Dawnland - nobody has attacked you personally, so it would be appreciated if you'd stop doing that to everyone who has a different opinion than you.

Secondly, as it might have only been 50+ years ago that natives were treated, as you say, as a "real person", then why haven't they stepped up to the plate and become "real people"? Why haven't they moved forward and moved into the "real world" and moved off the reserve? There is nothing legally binding keeping them on the reserve. I know many natives who have moved into regular neighbourhoods and are contributing to society via volunteering, working etc. Explain to me how this attitude is a negative to the native community.

Sorry, I know this is off topic, but this whole thread has gone slightly off topic.

I'm just tired of all protesters. Sometimes they're good, sometimes they're a waste of time. What I don't like is the fact that they are riding on the "we're poor native" bandwagon. I don't like that any more than the "we're gay and deserve special treatment" bandwagon, and I know and am friends with several gay people as well. Or the we're from Libia (or some other country) and look what's happening in our world protests. What impresses me is somebody who is able to hold their identity, keep their traditions alive, and yet still maintain a active role in everyday life. That takes pride, courage, fortitude, dedication and determination without infringing on our right to every one to have their own opinions.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby fluffy » Dec 23rd, 2012, 8:26 am

I agree to a point Tony, there is a real temptation to play the "entitlement" card but that would not be wise in this situation. Environmental concerns are a responsibility shared by all and if that focus can be maintained by the Idle-No-More movement then they stand a huge chance of gaining mainstream support. Granted if only to the point where we don't have to give up any of the conveniences that contribute to the problem.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby Dawnland » Dec 23rd, 2012, 9:09 am

Tony wrote:First off Dawnland - nobody has attacked you personally, so it would be appreciated if you'd stop doing that to everyone who has a different opinion than you.

There has been a very personal attack, Tony.
My name is N'quaimils, I can trace my lineage back almost 250 years and my ancestry maternally is Syilx (Okanagan Nation). I have lived both off and on reserve. I have attended highschool and elementary in Penticton, I have owned two properties and a business right here in Penticton, all while paying taxes. I pay for my student loans and have a fabulous academic history. Yes our family has suffered two generations of attempted cultural genocide with residential schools and the scoop of the 60's. Yet when my Indian Status teenager comes to these forums, hears the news, or standing in line at the dollar store, has to listen to non-Indigenous people spew about Indians cleaning up their yard, getting jobs or looking for handouts, how is my child or any other supposed to WANT to contribute to society in a positive way when all she is met with is ignorance?
By the way, Non-Indigenous persons arrived here in 1497 and it took almost 400 years to establish the very first government. Why did it take YOU people so long? (BTW my paternal heritage is Welsh and Irish and I know just as much about that background. That was my attempt at giving you a taste of what I face daily) Give us a break, try working WITH the First Nations instead of attacking us with old outdated stereotypes. Come to the big kids quilstn and leave your ignorance outside.
I began this thread so that I could make an informed decision about Bill C-45 before joining any protests. I know what the Indigenous perspective is and thought that to be properly informed I would like to get an unbiased, non-indigenous view of why this bill was a good thing. Once again I am left with a bitter taste in my mouth.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby Tony » Dec 24th, 2012, 7:20 am

Bill C-45 is a good thing economically for the Province period.

I am not slandering your heritage or anything else. I am not a sheeple. I am allowed to have my opinion, and it is based on working and knowing many natives in the Province. As I stated earlier, I know many native people who are very involved in the community, who contribute work etc. It sounds like you fall into that category, and well done. I have a problem with people, native, white, East Indian or any other ethnicity who like to ride the bandwagons of the masses, who take advantage of the Government and who whine about things that happened in the past, whether it's 400 years ago, or 4 years ago. It's in the past, and it can't be changed at all.

Congratulations on hanging onto your heritage. Chief Louie talks about that in the speech I posted earlier. It's easier to do that when you are healthy, happy and prosperous, not angry and trying to change the past, which can't be done. It's impossible.

Your are entitled to your opinion on C-45, but you are no matter what race, colour or creed you are, and so am I. You can just be an informed person stating an opinion, that is your right, same as it's mine. Just because our opinions differ, doesn't mean that anyone should be throwing any slanderous or mean remarks about a person's heritage.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby Dawnland » Dec 24th, 2012, 10:41 am

Tony;

I will start with my first original post, HOW is this a good thing for the Country? And if it isn't such a bad thing then why isn't the government saying anything? If Harper won't talk to the Chief from Attiwapiskat then why not address the Nation? He pretended that this didn't even exist in his year end speech/interview. Yes, I watched. Then on the tenth day of Theresa Spence's hunger strike Harper tweets.."MMMM, Bacon" If you do not know how this is a good thing for the provinces and citizens, then you are accepting the spoon-fed story and basing your informed opinion without looking outside of what your government leads you to believe. That is what the Indigenous people are trying to alert the rest of the country to.
You said you were basing your opinion on the many natives you know, but what do you know about this Bill?
I know that as a non-Aboriginal person you may not pay attention to something that happens to the Indigenous community but the federal government had a duty to meet with all the Nations leaders to outline and consult regarding this legislation. As equal partners in this country we were supposed to be part of the solution not just victims of it.This is part of Harper's ''New relationship" that he spent my tax payer dollars on convincing all Canadians was going to turn a page for progress, then in less than two years he turned around and showed that he LIED to ALL Canadians. He is counting on the placated masses to just ignore this as an Indian problem. The duty to consult does not cost the taxpayer money, it's a sign of partnership and respect.
I understand that you may feel that peoples comments on here are not personal attacks, but, the sweeping generalizations make it personal. You are talking about over one million people in one classification. More than half of the Indigenous people live off the reserves and do not receive any benefits so when you speak of "natives' complaining all the time that they don't get enough....that is a sweeping generalization that smacked half a million people in the face. As a responsible woman trying to teach her child to stand up for her rights, I tend to take these comments personally before her rights are taken away by the government without her consent. I would like to offer an apology to those who may have been offended by any comments that I have made. It is not my intention to hurt people, only to seek clarification and maybe to inform people of a serious offence by their own government.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby wonderland » Jan 22nd, 2013, 8:41 am

Thank you Dawnland I agree .
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby fluffy » Jan 22nd, 2013, 1:14 pm

I question Harper's motivation in these omnibus bills, especially C45 as it has the appearance of placing environmental protection on the back burner to irresponsible resource exploitation. His track record to date shows little regard for the wishes of the electorate. That being said I also don't see Chief Spence's actions as any benefit to the Idle No More movement, it seems more of an effort to avoid publicly justifying a six digit personal income while her band lives in squalor. At this stage of the game she's coming off as just another politician, using the Bill C454 issue to deflect attention from what is going on in her own back yard. It looks to me like she's talking the talk without walking the walk.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby totoramona » Jan 22nd, 2013, 11:58 pm

Dawnland, I completely agree with your position on the issue of Bill C-45 and I am dismayed with the responses by Tony, twobits and others. I support the Idle No More movement and I am appalled at Bill C-45.
Some of the attitudes towards First Nations, as expressed here, are so disheartening and I certainly hope they don't represent the greater population at large, although I hear enough of it amongst my acquaintances too (though not my friends).
Here is my take on the situation...
Attitudes like "that was in the past, can't do anything about it, stop complaining, get over it etc. etc. etc." are SUCH cop-outs. They are nothing more than trying to shirk responsibility for wrongs that have been done. You can't punch someone in the face and a minute later say, that's in the past, get over it. The government of Canada wronged First Nations peoples, again and again and again. It wasn't that long ago AND it still hasn't stopped!

The last residential school did not close its doors until 1986 and the people who suffered under this horrible government implemented system are part of aboriginal communities today. They are still living with the fall-out. It is NOT part of a distant past.

As of 2008, boil-water advisories were in place on more than 90 Canadian reserves and of the 89,897 houses on reserves, approximately 2,145 homes had no water service and 4,668 had no sewage service. In 2008! Appalling! Would the people of Canada allow this to continue if this were the case in 90 cities across Canada? Would we blame the residents of those cities for it, or would we demand our GOVERNMENTS to step in and make the water safe?

As for Bill C-45, the environmental de-protecting contained within it is downright scary. Canada is estimated to contain nearly 32,000 major lakes and more than 2.25 million rivers. The new Navigation Protection Act outlined in Bill C-45 reduces federal environmental oversight. It will cover only the three oceans, 97 lakes, and portions of 62 rivers. As concluded by the David Suzuki Foundation: "Amendments to environmental laws account for about HALF of the 452-page Bill. These amendments will weaken Canada's capacity for environmental governance, threatening our land, climate and water.”

I see the Idle No More movement as an exercise in democracy. The participants of this movement are bringing much needed attention to serious issues. At this point, Chief Theresa Spence is simply asking to meet with both Prime Minister Harper and the Governor General around a table together to discuss these issues. Why won’t they do this? I think it is a sickening abuse of their power position that they refuse to meet with her.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby twobits » Jan 23rd, 2013, 7:29 am

totoramona wrote: At this point, Chief Theresa Spence is simply asking to meet with both Prime Minister Harper and the Governor General around a table together to discuss these issues. Why won’t they do this? I think it is a sickening abuse of their power position that they refuse to meet with her.


Just why is it that people like yourself cannot seem to understand that the Govenor General has no authority or mandate to discuss policy issues? This has even been emphasized in a letter from the Queens office! The only result coming from his attendance would be that his butt occupied a chair as he could not particpate. Just as much would be achieved if your butt were occupying that chair.
If you want a raise, do you meet with the current boss/owner or a representative of the previous owners? With each passing day chief spence is looking more and more like a spoiled toddler, butt parked in the middle of a store aisle, trying to extort fruit loops with rediculous demands and tantrums.
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Re: Bill C-45

Postby Dawnland » Jan 24th, 2013, 11:07 am

Two-bits;
The importance of the Governor General is often overlooked by mainstream public. Often they are not aware of the relationship the Indigenous People have with the crown. Do you remember when your mom went to the neighbors house to get a cup of sugar? She would leave either the oldest or most responsible sibling in charge while away? That sibling was not to discipline others or pay bills or start cooking and cleaning, but to act as an impartial observer and report to mom on what 'went down' while she was away. If something had gone on that required action, mom would hear out the conflict and dish out the consequences. Without the observer, the bully sibling can get away with hair pulling and name calling. The Governor General is supposed to be our observer and report to the Queen that Harper is having his way with our Indigenous rights. He wouldn't even meet with the leader of the AFN or any Indigenous community leader to hear if there had been any wrong doing. In a news interview he didn't even know that our rights are HIS responsibility. Letters were written to the queen to inform her that our rights were being violated but she has the obligation to hear from the Governor General. If he is best buddies with PM Harper(who appointed him), how likely is it that he will be going to report wrong doing?
I have a hard time supporting Chief Theresa Spence. Not because I believe that she isn't there for the right reasons, but, because her community issues overshadow the movement and give the public mind something to discredit. I would like to see what the public reaction would be if Chief Clarence Louie were to have sat in that tee pee on Victoria Island for 44 days.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby glassmaster » Jan 24th, 2013, 12:36 pm

It is my understanding that Chief Louie (Osoyoos Indian Band) would find these protests a waste of time ... and perhaps even harmful to what he has worked so hard to do. He has created economic drivers of his own - so that his people can all have jobs and support themselves. Chief Louie has the respect because he doesn't spend all of his time fighting for something more ... he has used the rescources available and given his people the security of jobs. Chief Louie and the Osoyoos Indian Band is an example of what can happen when positive energy is aimed at bettering the situation ... not in protests. In no circumstance could I imagine Chief Louie doing what Chief Spence did. Chief Louie is too busy looking after his people and their business interests to be involved in protests. Chief Spence would have been better off arranging a meeting with Chief Louie and learning how to work co-operatively with others to ensure that her people are financially self sufficient. I recognize that it is much more difficult for the Northern-most bands to create economic drivers for themselves - but if others in northern communities sustain themselves - it shows that it is possible. Maybe it is time for a change of direction.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby Dawnland » Jan 24th, 2013, 1:30 pm

Thanks Glassmaster for dwindling down the ideals of Idle No More and Bill C-45 to an economic indicator. So you think she was there for money? She was there for the rights that were given to our people, not money. She was there for clean water not money. This is one of the fundamental differences between our communities, the mainstream society is based on economics whereas, the Indigenous communities are foundationally based on traditional knowledge and the strength of families. So many people applaud Chief Clarence Louie for his success because it can be measured by an economic indicator, it's what you know. You are right about Chief Louie not being there because he is too busy making money. But making money, does not protect our rights or our water and I am talking about water for all Canadians. If the Harper government is taking Indigenous rights away today what makes you think your rights aren't next? May I then suggest a hollywood actor or a significant Traditional Indigenous person.....Just anyone who is not Theresa Spence.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby twobits » Jan 24th, 2013, 1:41 pm

Dawnland wrote:Two-bits;
The importance of the Governor General is often overlooked by mainstream public. Often they are not aware of the relationship the Indigenous People have with the crown. Do you remember when your mom went to the neighbors house to get a cup of sugar? She would leave either the oldest or most responsible sibling in charge while away? That sibling was not to discipline others or pay bills or start cooking and cleaning, but to act as an impartial observer and report to mom on what 'went down' while she was away. If something had gone on that required action, mom would hear out the conflict and dish out the consequences. Without the observer, the bully sibling can get away with hair pulling and name calling. The Governor General is supposed to be our observer and report to the Queen that Harper is having his way with our Indigenous rights. He wouldn't even meet with the leader of the AFN or any Indigenous community leader to hear if there had been any wrong doing. In a news interview he didn't even know that our rights are HIS responsibility. Letters were written to the queen to inform her that our rights were being violated but she has the obligation to hear from the Governor General. If he is best buddies with PM Harper(who appointed him), how likely is it that he will be going to report wrong doing?
I have a hard time supporting Chief Theresa Spence. Not because I believe that she isn't there for the right reasons, but, because her community issues overshadow the movement and give the public mind something to discredit. I would like to see what the public reaction would be if Chief Clarence Louie were to have sat in that tee pee on Victoria Island for 44 days.


I hear what you are saying but the reality is that the Govenor General is essentially a figurehead only now. A hang over of the monarchy. You are presuming he, and the Queen, have any say in the policy of todays Canada. They don't and I am sure they do not even care to wade into the discussion even if they could. Talk to the people that make policy in this era. Living in the past and pining about past relationships will garner no results and in fact will be counter productive. Witness chief spence. While she may have been successful in getting attention, me thinks the majority of it was not good attention. I will not disagree that there are some serious problems to work out with our FN's peoples but to be truthful, if I were FN, I sure wouldn't want her as a poster child! People do not even believe she was on a hunger strike. Six weeks without solid food leave leave even the rotund looking frail and gaunt. How does spence explain the chubby round face after six weeks of no food? No credibility.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby glassmaster » Jan 24th, 2013, 1:48 pm

The issues are many ... and complex. However, the First Nations are equally responsible for turning the Idle No More movement in to a discussion about 'economics'. It is really good to see some young people getting involved, and asking questions. Hopefully they will keep asking questions, not just of the government, but of their own leaders.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby Dawnland » Jan 24th, 2013, 1:55 pm

two-bits, agreed Chief Theresa Spence should not have been the figurehead. Unfortunately her actions and Idle No More happened all at the same time and were lumped in together. That's why I had made alterNATIVE suggestions. You do not know, what you have not lived so when it comes to questioning the authenticity of her actions, let's just leave it out of the conversation to keep things friendly. Agreed?
Also, if the Governor General isn't going to do his job why are your tax dollars still paying him? Isn't that figurehead unnecessary role pissing you off just as much as it pisses us Natives off? There are many things that can be changed and we need the support of mainstream Canadians to help push for those changes.
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