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Bill C-45

South Okanagan topics including Summerland, Naramata, Penticton, Okanagan Falls, Oliver, Osoyoos, and Keremeos.

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Re: Bill C-45

Postby glassmaster » Jan 24th, 2013, 3:19 pm

If you recognize the need for 'mainstream Canada' to support your ideas ... then communication and co-operation is the key.
Found this post from a young First Nations male ... I think he makes some valid points.



"As a young Aboriginal family who has lived on and off the rez for most of our lives, we know firsthand about living in FN communites (Poverty,addictions,gangs,family feuds,band politics) We feel the "Idle No More" message has lost its way! An Aboriginal leader threatening to harm herself & gaining support for this is wrong in so many ways & you know it! The old ones taught us better & our children are watching!

Many of us feel INM carries a different stronger message - We as Aboriginal people will be Idle no more for: Government handouts & government solutions
Redirecting blame & responsibilities
Band infighting
Fiscal mismanagement,corruption & destructive band politics
Addictions controling our lives
SA careers
Apprehention of our children
Waiting for employment
Waiting for Canada to take pity on us! We are not Victims!

Yes, gov. is reponsible for many atrocities, but over time we have become our own worst enemies. It's all about choices & chances! It's your choice to stay in the rez rut! You don't like it, do something about it! Stop relying on governemnt to fix us, stop being a victim, Stop the disfuctional band politics and infighting, quit these poor examples of leadership, you keep perpetuating this cycle! Quit pointing the finger, be accountable for your actions & decisions, take responsibility & be the example our children all deserve!

People.. make a choice, & embrace your opportunities. We left the rez, got educated & finally, have good paying jobs & participating with the rest of Canada, so should you! You can't help if you are part of the problem.

What happened to self-determination, sacrifice & compromise? When we finally say IDLE NO MORE to our own afflictions and stop the blame game - we will be further ahead.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby Bsuds » Jan 24th, 2013, 3:51 pm

That attitude I can support!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim.
I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning


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Re: Bill C-45

Postby Dawnland » Jan 24th, 2013, 4:48 pm

I believe that post is reiterated with many First Nations across Canada. This is a reason why more than %50 of Status First Nations people live off reserve. When the government was forced to abandon the DIA agent system it was replaced with another system that was imposed and flawed. Having tried since 1975 to be able to make this system work within our communities we understand it is not benefiting anyone and most certainly not creating sustainable communities. But, Glassmaster would you agree though that the Federal Government has to change the relationship parameters with First Nations communities for all of us to move forward? Why should I have to apply to the Federal Government to build or buy a house on my land? If I have the credit and can obtain a mortgage, why should I require a ministerial guarantee? That permission process alone takes about four years. The Federal government takes .68 on the dollar for every dollar provided to First Nation reserves. The reason we have to struggle for simple rights is because the government makes money off it. Give us the same due process and see where we go then.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby glassmaster » Jan 24th, 2013, 5:33 pm

Dawnland, thank you for that reply. Your questions make me realize how little I know about many of the issues on reserve land. Yes, I would agree that the Federal Government has to change the 'relationship parameters' with First Nations communities ... just as the First Nations need to change their parameters. That is why I keep referring to co-operation and communication. It is not meant as an insult. Although I hesitate to keep referencing the OIB ... it is difficult not to notice how well the town of Oliver & Osoyoos work with the Osoyoos Indian Band and vice-versa. Members of the OIB are building themselves beautiful new houses (with apparent ease). Their leadership has set the stage for mutual respect ... and it has worked beautifully.

My understanding as to why you would require a ministerial guarantee is because you would be unable to get a traditional mortgage on First Nations Land. Is that correct? However, there must be ways around this ... because, when you lease your land to the Federal Government and then to third parties ... mortgages can be obtained. It isn't easy, and not all banks will do it, but it is possible with the appropriate credit rating etc. The rules with on reserve living must be incredibly frustrating ... I suppose there is the pros and cons in all situations. You don't always get to make your own decisions (without approval) ... but in defense of the Government ... they have to answer to the taxpayers for their spending on Band Land. I do know this is complicated ... and I truly hope that 'old anger' does not prevent the PIB from creating their own security.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby Dawnland » Jan 24th, 2013, 5:58 pm

Glassmaster; I would like the Federal government to get out of my bed and stop stealing the change from my night stand. I shouldn't have to 'deal' with the Federal government for anything other than my passport. The Feds treat FN communities like little children who NEED looking after. The drive to keep this flawed system going is to make money for #Ottawapiskat (that is the bureaucrats who spend $45billion on fighterjets and $100000 on Gazebos) I shouldn't need a loophole to build a house or develop my community, as a responsible adult with good credit I should be able to go to the bank like everyone else and do so. For reference, OIB never had Jake Kimberly as a mayor.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby glassmaster » Jan 24th, 2013, 6:29 pm

Yes, the OIB never had Jake Kimberley to deal with ... or Stewart Phillip. Your past leadership has hurt you as much (or more) than Penticton's leadership. Hopefully, those days are over and you can move forward.

Recent news has the Federal government bailing out a broke Ontario First Nation band that had grossly mismanaged their government supplied funds. The only way to get the Federal Government out of your pocket is to become independant. I really don't think that blocking off roadways or railway routes is the answer ... all that does is frustrate those that are trying to get to work. It is a vicious cycle .. and the only solution is to change tactics. Look to the bands that are financially secure, happy and not feeling oppressed by anyone. It can be done.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby Dawnland » Jan 24th, 2013, 11:06 pm

Please Glassmaster, stop with the sweeping generalizations and assumptions you are using to base your decision about a very large complex topic. Attawapiskat is a community of roughly 2000, there are just over 1000000 Status First Nations people. Did you know there is a large percentage of chief and councils who do not get paid for their positions? Of course you didn't, that's because you'd rather mass conservative media sites spoon feed you the argument. Chief Spence was only elected two years ago, she's dealing with residue that we cannot imagine. None of the major roads or rail lines were closed for more that 12 hours and that was all back East, there were a few hundred people affected. No one lost their life or their job. How were you affected? Which road was blocked in BC? Alberta? Saskatchewan? Why would you focus on those random closures that were mere demonstrations? Why wouldn't you even mention the peaceful flashmob round dances or the protests at Canadian Embassy's around the world? Planned information sessions, three have been held here in Penticton. Those were positive peaceful gatherings where we shared concerns and opened some amazing dialogue. Of course you didn't know about it, why would the media cover that? Idle No More is about reversing the Omnibus bill and honouring the duty to consult in changing the Navigable Water Protection Act and the Bill that had to do with Treaty agreements (I admit I don't know which one that was because it doesn't apply to a majority of FN communities in BC). Reserves are not asking for more money, let me repeat that, Reserves are not asking for more money. Everyone is disappointed about Attawapiskat but the Federal Government will take that rescue money from our annual First Nations budget and it won't even see one of your tax dollars.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby glassmaster » Jan 25th, 2013, 6:27 am

I was not referring to Attawapiskat or Chief Spence in my last post. The financial support that I was referring to went to Gull Bay First Nation.

Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada will provide just over $1 million in funding as emergency support. All the band staff had been laid off under the previous council and the band office closed due to a lack of money. They are struggling to figure out what happened because there is no documentation outlining how the money was spent. It was the newly elected Chief that sounded the alarm.

I only mentioned this because you said that you wanted the Federal Government out of your back pocket ... my response is that if you want them out of your back pocket then something has to change on BOTH sides.

Of course I knew about the peaceful demonstrations in Penticton (and in many other places). Those demonstrations were covered in the media. The reason that I mentioned the road closure demonstrations is because (in my opinion) ... only 12 hours of a blocking a road way or a rail line is '12 hours too long'. If you support that kind of action ... (nobody was killed or lost their job) ... I can't agree with that. No big deal, I just don't think that is the way to get mainstream Canada on board.

As both of us have said ... these issues are complex. I would add that the issues are not one sided.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby twobits » Jan 25th, 2013, 9:01 am

Dawnland wrote:
Also, if the Governor General isn't going to do his job why are your tax dollars still paying him? Isn't that figurehead unnecessary role pissing you off just as much as it pisses us Natives off? There are many things that can be changed and we need the support of mainstream Canadians to help push for those changes.


You bet it pizzes me off. The whole office is a waste of money and just a throwback to the past. We are no longer a British Colony. This is why Spences demands so pizzed me off. They cast our government, like em or not, as subordinate to the Queen. That is not acceptable to me and a slap in the face to all Canadians.
I enjoyed your exchange with glass. The problems are indeed many, complex, and long over due for repair. I do think however that one of the major obstacles is the lack of a broad consensus across a very diverse FN's population. We need one govt speaking to another rather than one to 600 or one to various splinter coalitions with the inevitable backroom descent underminig a leader we thought had a mandate. I am of course referring to the recent Aleto exchanges. It just erodes the whole legitimacy of the process when one is walking on eggshells and just wondering when the process is inevitably going to fail because a few don't agree don't agree with their leaders direction. End result? The merry-go-round continues.
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

If we could just tax "stupid", there would be no government deficit
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby zzontar » Jan 25th, 2013, 9:44 am

Dawnland wrote: Did you know there is a large percentage of chief and councils who do not get paid for their positions?


Any links to back that statement up?
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby Dawnland » Jan 25th, 2013, 11:11 am

Zzontar;
The Canadian taxpayer federation already issues those numbers for each reserve in each province. Besides their very general overview you can actually go into each link and find out about all the bands in each province. The only thing that you are not able to do is differentiate between reserves. Don't you think that if there was serious over payment to find, the conservative media machine would be all over that and it would have been the first thing that Criminister Harper would have changed? Go to www.taxpayer.com in that link I found that in BC, only 40% reserves provide a salary for their chief and councils, the ones that do pay salary the most being $123k for the chief and the lowest being $500 for each elected official per year. There are some crazy figures for Manitoba and Ontario, I agree there, but it isn't like we have any say in what the Alberta Premiere brings home either. The information is not private, only their identity.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby glassmaster » Jan 25th, 2013, 12:32 pm

I went to the site that was suggested by Dawnland. http://www.taxpayer.com Here is some of what I found there:



New jaw-dropping reserve pay numbers



Approx. 50 reserve politicians paid more than prime minister in 2008-09

Approx. 160 reserve politicians paid more than their respective premiers in 2008-09

Over 600 received an income that is equivalent to over $100,000 off reserve

One Atlantic Canada reserve politician paid $978,468 tax free in 2008-09 (equivalent to about $1.8 million off reserve)



Approx. 50 reserve politicians paid more than prime minister in 2008-09

Approx. 160 reserve politicians paid more than their respective premiers in 2008-09

Over 600 received an income that is equivalent to over $100,000 off reserve

One Atlantic Canada reserve politician paid $978,468 tax free in 2008-09 (equivalent to about $1.8 million off reserve) Here is


* These are numbers from 2008-09 - but I can't imagine that things have changed a whole lot. When you consider that the average Reserve population is less than 1,500 ... these numbers are indeed jaw-dropping. If town Mayors attempted to get that kind of pay ... they would voted out in a nano-second.

A new approach is needed alright - one that treats all Canadians the same. This page recommended that the Government abide by treaty contracts and the constitution ... but that they phase out all non-treaty laws and programs that single out aboriginal people. They suggest that all changes should be geared toward creating self-sufficiency and ending poverty. Harper needs to talk with the grass root taxpayers as well as the grass roots aboriginals. I think everyone (on both sides of the fence) are fed up with certain aspects of how things are currently done.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby Dawnland » Jan 25th, 2013, 1:08 pm

Thanks Glassmaster for proving my point, you are spoonfed shocking data meant to get you all riled up but when you dig just one layer deeper you find the real story. The shocking numbers that you are spewing from the website are talking about 810 reserves across Canada, do you know how many reserves there are in Canada? 2267. More than half are responsible and manage their communities with heart and great skills. If some get paid more than a premiere they probably earn it through education, experience and duties. Ralph Klein has some post-secondary experience and that's it. Some of our sitting Chiefs hold PhD or Law degrees and some deserve every penny they get. How do we move forward and why can't we repeal the omnibus bill until the government upholds their duty to consult?
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby glassmaster » Jan 25th, 2013, 1:16 pm

Well, if more than half are responsible ... that doesn't quite cut it. Why wouldn't you want to be treated as every other Canadian (assuming that the Government abides by the treaty contracts & the constitution)?

This isn't just about what Chief's or council members are paid. There are many laws and programs that single out aborignal people. Do you think all of those should remain in place? How do things ever change if First Nations are not treated like every other Canadian? Isn't that what you want?
Last edited by glassmaster on Jan 25th, 2013, 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby zzontar » Jan 25th, 2013, 1:25 pm

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/pol ... le4191875/

Here's the link from that link with the salaries: http://www.taxpayer.com/sites/default/f ... sponse.pdf

As far as knowing exactly what they make:
"When you actually pull out the salaries for chiefs and councillors, there's more than just those two columns [salaries and honoraria]" Mr. Craig said. "Quite often they get money from economic development accounts which are largely set up through taxpayer subsidies. And then they have band-owned enterprises and travel accounts and all that. So the federal government chose to ignore all that."



As for future accountability on salaries and expenses: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2011/11/23 ... 10527.html

The government introduced a bill Wednesday requiring elected officials from First Nations to disclose their expenses and salaries.


And Spence's team's reply when confronted by another native leader about fiscal accountability:

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/01/24 ... de=2022423

Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence, or whoever is controlling her account, took to Twitter Thursday to call Senator Patrick Brazeau a "typical colonized indian *bleep*."

Brazeau, an Algonquin from the Kitigan Zibi reserve in Quebec, has long been critical of fiscal accountability on reserves and was tweeting about the celebrations to end Spence's hunger strike Thursday when the chief's account shot back with the vitriolic tweet.
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