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Bill C-45

South Okanagan topics including Summerland, Naramata, Penticton, Okanagan Falls, Oliver, Osoyoos, and Keremeos.

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Re: Bill C-45

Postby Dawnland » Jan 25th, 2013, 4:12 pm

Zzontar and Glassmaster. You seem to think that it is your right to know what every chief and Councillor makes with all their own personal investments and holdings? In what world? Do you know how much council members and the mayor make outside of their positions? Didn't think so. Why do you feel it's your right to know every dime that a band chief makes outside of his/her duties as chief? That sounds very one sided to me, yet you think we should or ever would be treated like every other Canadian. I don't see a website that provides the average education, income and family dynamic for the city of Penticton. Yet on the INAC website you (as in everyone) has the opportunity to delve into the inner workings of each reserve in Canada.
The Federal Government makes too much money off the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs to be bothered to change anything. The Canadian public, fed by the media machine, under the direction of the Federal Government will have you believing that First Nations in Canada are seeking a handout to mismanage. You read an article about a reserve of a couple hundred people and how they are bankrupt, then you run off at the mouth about Natives. Your racial profiling is proving my point for me. These inherent systems are making fools of us all. Meanwhile Peter McKay just pilfered $2 billion more for his "oops I screwed up" mission in Mali.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby Dawnland » Jan 25th, 2013, 4:24 pm

Back to the topic of Bill C-45:
These Idle No More drums are not just for us: they beat for you because the legislation we are protesting does not just harm us -- it hurts you and your children and your grandchildren. This is not about your Aboriginal neighbours -- it is about 'justice' for you, too. The "Omnibus" budget bills change the law in ways that will forever harm the water and earth that we all rely on for life.
I cannot tell you what path to follow. I cannot tell you to join our protest. But I can tell you the story of what we know of these legislative changes and how they will forever change our relationship with the land and water. So I ask you to take this story to heart; then it is up to you to decide what to do.

• The federal government passed Bill C-45, changing 44 laws that removed many fish habitat protections and fails to recognize Aboriginal commercial fisheries.
• The new Navigation Protection Act removed the environmental assessment requirement for all but one per cent of Canada's waterways including key rivers in British Columbia along the path of the proposed Northern Gateway pipeline.
• Bill C-38 affected more than 70 federal laws without proper Parliamentary debate and changed Canada's federal environmental legislation and protections for water, fish, and the environment.
• Bill C-27 requires First Nation-owned businesses (unlike non-Aboriginal businesses) to publicly report income and expenses, thus undermining competitiveness.

This was taken from Chief Shining Turtle from the Whitefish Lake first Nations blog published on Huffingtonpost.
I can't speak for legislation that was created before I was born or for Pierre Elliot Trudeau's "White Paper" but what I can say is that we all live here and breathe the same air. Idle No More is about the environment.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby glassmaster » Jan 26th, 2013, 10:52 am

Dawnland wrote:Zzontar and Glassmaster. You seem to think that it is your right to know what every chief and Councillor makes with all their own personal investments and holdings? In what world? Do you know how much council members and the mayor make outside of their positions? Didn't think so. Why do you feel it's your right to know every dime that a band chief makes outside of his/her duties as chief? That sounds very one sided to me, yet you think we should or ever would be treated like every other Canadian. I don't see a website that provides the average education, income and family dynamic for the city of Penticton. Yet on the INAC website you (as in everyone) has the opportunity to delve into the inner workings of each reserve in Canada.


Dawnland, you have taken some comments about the need for accountability and turned them in to us wanting to know about 'personal investments and holdings'. Nobody said that.

If there are reserve politicians that are paying themselves huge salaries (while keeping their band members and the taxpayers) in the the dark ... I think that is good reason to require transparency and reform. Canadians have the right to know where the money goes - and to say otherwise is detrimental to your cause.

I believe that mainstream Canada will disengage from the Idle No More movement because of these old attitudes. I'm sure that many people are sympathetic to some of the goals ... but there is confusion and anger that large amounts of money are gone (and unaccounted for) ... and it is apparently 'none of our business'. The Government/Tax Payer is expected to help when there are financial issues on a reserve ... but questions are taken as an insult.

Unless the reserves are funded like any other municipality (with your own tax dollars) ... there will be questions from the outside. Idle No More should fight to have the treaties upheld ... and for all Canadians to be under the same laws. That is something that mainstream Canada would support. It seems as though some First Nations people want mainstream Canada to fight against Bill C-45 while ignoring (or dismissing) other issues. I do think the movement has been successful in getting people to take a closer look at the Bill ... I don't think Bill C-45 has caused the type of hysteria that was hoped for. If there were truly earth shattering implications to the bill in question, the opposition would be whistle blowing and screaming for all to hear.

The Idle No More movement has drawn mainstream Canada's attention to a bigger picture - that being the need to transform the relationship between First Nations and Canada. That relationship is forever imbalanced unless all Canadians are bound by the same laws.

Dawnland, you have said that it is the Federal Government that doesn't want to change anything because they make too much money off the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Affairs. So, are you saying that they (Federal Government) prefer to keep the First Nations people dependant because they are making money by doing so? I have a tough time with accepting that ... but if it is true ... we should all protest. I wonder what would happen if all Canadians were to join forces in peaceful protest ... seeking equality in laws and programs.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby Dawnland » Jan 27th, 2013, 11:31 am

So from what I gather the Idle No More movement is about all Canadians rights to clean land, air and water. It has of course in the racists head turned into “ those damn Indians want more of my tax dollars.“ From what I have learned in these last few weeks this is a false statement and those making it are completely uneducated. To put it in terms everyone can understand lets explain it this way;
Lets say the year is 1857. Your grandparents “own" a farm about the size of Manitoba to British Columbia. The government comes over and tells them "we need more land for others to live on. We will buy most of your farm. It is worth $400.00 an acre but we will give you $100.00 an acre. We will also give you and your family some land to live on over there in the swampy hilly forest area where the precious farmers can't easily do their important work. Oh and by the way, we will hold the money we want to pay you in trust and give only small amounts of your money to you when we see fit. Now you must stay on the land we gave you for all generations and you can hunt and fish to stay alive but only on your piece of land."
150 years later and you are living on your grandparents land, now your family has a farm that is useless for farming, and the others around you have polluted the water so you can't fish unless you can eat three eyed tumor ridden fish and the animals can't make it to your farm because the others have fenced them out. Now to add insult to injury the government has figured out there is important stuff under your useless land so they want to come take that away too. You look at your family and see they are hungry and cold. The water is poisoned by your neighbors and there is no food to eat. You know that the land that was once your grandparents was bought by the government. The money was put into trust. You and your family are hungry and you want some help. You are told to get a job, get over it, stop being lazy, so many ignorant comments from a government that has your families money "in trust" you go looking for that money and find it was used to build a railroad across what was your grandparents farm, then more was used to build roads and help out those poor hungry bankers. You get angrier and angrier. You are told you were given enough money but you mismanaged it. You look at your records and notice the government gave you $5000.00 to build up your farm but charged you $3000.00 to have a professional government man help you. Still you are trusting the government and then they tell you they want to take anything of value out of the ground on what is left of your families farm. Now you have had it you are IDLE NO MORE!!!! Completely pissed and ready to do what it takes to make sure your children have a chance to survive on the farm. Standing up to the government so all your neighbors have a chance to survive on all the land that was once your grandparents. If it was your grandparents farm, wouldn't you fight for it?
The money the bands get every year is from our trust accounts but it is administered by the Federal Government. Please see the attached link; http://media.knet.ca/node/22268
Yes Glassmaster, the government makes money off the Reserve system and they need the general public to be so blinded by scary words like 'fiscal mismanagement, transparency, unaccountable, militant action' all tied with a bow called federal spending so everyone believes it is the individual taxpayer dollar. Idle No More would encourage all Canadians to join in PEACEFUL protest. We all breath the same air, it should be clean and free.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby totoramona » Jan 27th, 2013, 2:23 pm

Hi Dawnland,
I just want to say that I think I "get it". I am sure I can't truly understand the pain, betrayal and outrage that First Nations across Canada must feel, but as a fellow, non-native, Canadian, I understand the situation to be exactly as you describe it and I believe the Idle No More movement is a reasonable result of these 150 years of colonialism and oppression. The Canadian Government is an enduring entity. The Canadian Government perpetrated colonialism, continued the oppression, and now, in what should be a more enlightened time, must make reparations as the entity responsible for those actions. While the current taxpayers of Canada may not have personally perpetrated the wrongs of the past, in a way, many continue to do so by not acknowledging the wrongs of the past. It is another kind of oppression. The actions, laws, and policies of the Canadian Government created the current situation on First Nations Reserves and to suggest that the dire situations are due to poor character, laziness, or somehow racially attributable, is most definitely a form of racism.
Anyway, Dawnland, I hope I "get it". Although I have yet to join in any demonstrations, I always try to speak up when I hear others "talking trash" about First Nations and the Idle No More movement. I just wanted to point out that glassmaster, twobits and Zzontar are not the only opinions out there.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby twobits » Jan 27th, 2013, 3:15 pm

totoramona wrote: I just wanted to point out that glassmaster, twobits and Zzontar are not the only opinions out there.


And I would point out that we are entitled to our opinions, have been respectful, and acknowledged that the status quo is not acceptable. I would also add that if Dawnland wishes to engage in meaningful dialouge, the presentation above of owning a farm the size of Manitoba to British Columbia is not a good beginning point. That "farm" had hundreds of different bands occupying small arreas of it, not the whole land mass , and were often at war with each other for for what they claimed as "their traditional territories" for gosh sakes. They can't even agree amonst themselves to this day. I, figuratively speaking, am perfectly willing to sit down with our FN neighbours and try to address and rectify the problems but am not prepared to sell the farm over what is essencially a 150 yr old deal gone bad. I take the position we have evolved as a country with both aboriginals and immigrants as rightfull occupants and all should share in the wealth of this nation. No special interest groups claiming soveriegn superiority or exclusive rights to resources based on a silly argument of "we were here first".
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

If we could just tax "stupid", there would be no government deficit
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby Dawnland » Jan 27th, 2013, 5:39 pm

twobits
No one here said or implied that you were in no way entitled to your opinion nor free to share it. It does seem to me that totoramona was expressing support for the argument that I have been trying to make.
The part about the size of a farm the size of Manitoba to BC is big for one farm, I agree, members of a family fight and sometimes war with one another. You do know what an analogy is right? I was describing a situation with which you may be able to associate. No one is asking you to sell your farm to pay for a government deal. The Federal government has a trust account that they remain trustees of, that is where the FN monies come from. The government is gouging the First Nations Trust and the land rights to overseas business interests and we are asking for your help to stop it before it's too late.
twobits wrote:based on a silly argument of "we were here first".

This is the opinion that totoramona was distancing from.
Did you say this because you are ignorant or just to ridicule?
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby Dawnland » Jan 27th, 2013, 9:04 pm

I would like to thank one of my Fabecook Friends for the farm analogy, it totally worked. :discodance:
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby zzontar » Jan 27th, 2013, 11:16 pm

Dawnland wrote:I would like to thank one of my Fabecook Friends for the farm analogy, it totally worked. :discodance:


Everyone has ancestors who had lots of land, I guess some don't realize that it's physically impossible for that to continue as the human population grows. Dawnland, perhaps you can answer this as I've asked it many times and no one seems to respond: Do you think the natives would rather have had it where everyone here just emigrated without any "stealing" the land, so in essence everything now would be the same except the natives would have no different rights than non-natives?
They say you can't believe everything they say.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby Dawnland » Jan 27th, 2013, 11:50 pm

Zzontar;
I do not want to or ever would speak about what Natives want. I cannot speak for all Natives, I haven't ever met a Native who would claim such a thing. I can speak for myself and my experience. In my experience, I want to ensure we all have clean water and plenty of natural resources to enjoy (not sell) and I would like to have the Kelowna Accord agreement be implemented to dissolve the Department of Indian Affairs and abolish the Indian Act. I can't say that what I want is what my neighbor wants or even a handful of people in my community, but the mainstream government systems have opposition too, we aren't all going to agree but the Kelowna Accord was done together through respectful dialogue.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby zzontar » Jan 27th, 2013, 11:59 pm

Okay then, as no natives ever want to answer that question, do you think it would have been better for the natives if people just emigrated here instead of "stealing" their land. That way all Canadians would be equal, thus all having the same stakes in environmental decisions.
They say you can't believe everything they say.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby Dawnland » Jan 28th, 2013, 12:23 pm

Zzontar;
It isn't that no Natives want to answer that question, it's that no Natives CAN answer that question. That's feeding into the sweeping generalizations Indigenous people are trying to get away from. I wouldn't ever ask you to respond for ALL Canadians, if I did and you answered, you would appear foolish with a side order of narcissism. We can't turn back time Zzontar no matter how much we would like to. It would mean that the reserve system or residential schools never happened and it would mean the White Paper never existed or even the cultural genocide committed by the Federal Government. I would see things turning out a whole lot different if that's what actually happened. The Kelowna Accord was a good start.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby Rwede » Jan 28th, 2013, 12:26 pm

"cultural genocide "

Sensational, much?

Get on with life.
You are not stupid, I just think you have bad luck when thinking.

George+ says: "Makes no sense to me.
But that is not unusual."
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby glassmaster » Jan 28th, 2013, 1:28 pm

Dawnland, you can no more speak for all First Nations people than anyone can speak for all Canadians. You are absolutely correct in that. That is exactly why we need to move towards equality. Across the board equality. Our country is multicultural ... and to give any specific group control of the environment (or anything else) does not work. What you may want ... a Band in Ontario may totally disagree with. The needs, wants and consultations have no end under the current system. I think that ALL Canadians should be working towards a common goal of one country - one law. All Canadians should have equal say (and equal privileges) in all things. There are a growing number of First Nations that would agree.
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Re: Bill C-45

Postby Dawnland » Jan 28th, 2013, 3:49 pm

Glassmaster;
You are right, there are many differing opinions. Other than Senator Patrick Brazeau and Anthony Sowan do you have others to add to the list of these 'growing numbers' you speak of? The Kelowna Accord process would dissolve DIAND as well as the Indian Act and hopefully bring all citizens closer together, I am not against a level playing field.
Rwede; Cultural Genocide is what the Canadian Government is currently under investigation for by the United Nations. These words are used by the United Nations as well as Indigenous groups around the world who have suffered these actions. Mass graves containing the bodies of hundreds of Aboriginal children have been uncovered, genital mutilations and experimentation along with the "kill the Indian in the child" program are all foundational elements of this cultural genocide. As a person who goes to work five days a week and is a functioning member of society, I can firmly state that this is not 'sensational' in any way and my life has always been moving forward. Once again, your spoon-fed conservative arguments are weak and show you do not investigate what you are told, only regurgitate.
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