Spiller Road Fire (for Penticton forum)

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Tero
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Spiller Road Fire (for Penticton forum)

Post by Tero »

Raging fire sparks calls for hydrants
by Deborah Pfeiffer - Story: 77430
Jul 3, 2012 / 4:10 pm

Penticton residents who live near a home which burned this weekend say they plan to ask City Council to put in fire hydrants in their neighbourhood.


Photo: Deborah Pfeiffer - Castanet
They are taking the action after firefighters were hampered by a lack of water to battle the house fire, which broke out on a road high above Penticton on the edge of the forest.

“It has been a topic of conversation for many years, but we haven’t pressed very hard,” said Steven Boultbee, who lives nearby. “But something like this happening changed that.”

According to Penticton Fire Department Captain Howard Grantham, the department was called out to the structure fire at 1133 Spiller Road about 1:30 a.m. on Saturday. When they arrived they found the home on fire as well as brush and trees surrounding it.

They attempted an initial attack, but there was no water supply there, so only water carried by the trucks could be used to fight the fire. The Naramata Fire Department and B.C. Forest Service suppression crew were also called in with their water tenders.

“The water tenders were used in a shuttle system, but there was not enough water for a serious attack,” he said. “This definitely indicates the need for fire hydrants in all residential areas.”

The owner of the home was not there at the time of the fire. A tenant who was in the house escaped without injury.

Boultbee, who left his home with his family when the fire started, said had it been more normal weather conditions for this time of year, it could have been something akin to Kelowna in 2003.

“The firefighters were close to helpless, because the fire was absolutely roaring when they got there,” he said. “My concern was for our home, surrounding homes and the forest.”

Councillor Garry Litke said he was going to a meeting to learn more about what happened on Tuesday afternoon.

As for the fire hydrants, they are a good idea, he said, but the question is who pays for them.

“When people move into an area, they know what services they are getting when they get there,” he said.

************************************************************


I've got to admit, I agree with Litke on this one. You bought a home there and now want hydrants put in after the fact? Who should foot the bill? I wonder what kind of fire insurance (and at what cost) those residents have.
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Re: Spiller Road Fire

Post by GEW »

I know this neighborhood well; I lived there for many years. I think the cost of running hydrants from a water source in the city would be way too expensive. The line would need to be three kilometers long to reach Naramata road, it would have to be pumped one thousand feet high and go through some very rocky terrain- and only to cover 25 houses or so.
I agree that fire protection is an important issue up there especially with the landfill located in the area, which sometimes has flareups from methane deposits. There are a number of creeks, ponds and an underground water tunnel (which runs underneath Campbell Mountain to irrigate the Naramata bench) in the area. Perhaps it would be more practical to install stand pipes or short lines from those sources. At least then the fire trucks would have a shorter turn around time than the bottom of Reservoir road.
I don't remember what my parents paid for insurance. It was higher than what would be paid in town for sure, but not out of reach.
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Re: Spiller Road Fire

Post by bipdl »

GEW wrote:I know this neighborhood well; I lived there for many years.... I don't remember what my parents paid for insurance. It was higher than what would be paid in town for sure, but not out of reach.


I (and my neighbours) live in what insurance companies call "unprotected territory" (interface lands with no fire hydrants) and the insurance companies who will insure people living outside city limits start their premiums from not less than $2,000. annually, depending on building replacement values. They assume total losses in all cases, although I've seen what a city home can look like after the fire department has left the scene... usually not much left to "repair" if they don't get there within a few short minutes.

Hey Tero, who payed for the fire hydrants on your block? You? How long have you lived here? The folks up Spiller Road pay city taxes too, ya know. Nice that you've got yours though, so why should you pitch in anything more, right?
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Re: Spiller Road Fire

Post by Charliesheen »

I live on an unserviced road and the cost to bring in services is going to cost each home owner thousands upon thousands of dollars. If they want the City to run more infrastructure up there they may as well prepare for a huge bill. Oh, and by the way, isn't Boultbee the guy who moved up there and then complained about the smell of the landfill some years ago?
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Re: Spiller Road Fire

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GEW wrote:Hey Tero, who payed for the fire hydrants on your block? You? How long have you lived here? The folks up Spiller Road pay city taxes too, ya know. Nice that you've got yours though, so why should you pitch in anything more, right?


LOL, I've lived in Pentcton for about 20 years, this particular house for about 3. My house is just under 100 years old, so was probably here before the hydrants on the street - which were most likely installed by city tax dollars as Penticton grew. So.... maybe as the area up Spiller road grows, there will be hydrants installed! Will I currently be "pitching in" anything more? Um, no. Don't hold your breath on that one! Of course they pay taxes (like the rest of us.) They also knew the water situation before they moved in.
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fluffy
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Re: Spiller Road Fire

Post by fluffy »

Doesn't Spiller Road leave city limits shortly past the landfill?
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Re: Spiller Road Fire

Post by twobits »

bipdl wrote: Hey Tero, who payed for the fire hydrants on your block? You? How long have you lived here? The folks up Spiller Road pay city taxes too, ya know. Nice that you've got yours though, so why should you pitch in anything more, right?


Cities typically do not pay to install this type of infrastructure, they maintain it and replace it as required after the fact. Developers install this stuff and then turn it over to the city. There will be hydrants on Spiller road when someone makes an application to further develope and densify the area that makes the cost of infratructure make sense. The only other way is for all the homeowners to agree as a group to pay the cost themselves. I can assure you it is a very large cost too. You cannot provide fire hydrant service from a pumped source at this elevation. Not much good if the power goes out. A reservoir of adequete size must be built at a high enough elevation to which water is pumped. You cannot just utilize a stream or surface water for various regulatory reasons. The reservoir must be high enough to gravity feed back down to the residential area via service mains and provide a minimum head pressure at the hydrant of 35 psi. At 2.2 lbs per 5 ft of head the reservoir would have to be 75ft higher in elevation than the highest elevation hydrant. Where does the reservoir get put and what is the access? Bottomline is the cost is millions of dollars and the 25 or so homes would never agree to the cost. Second bottom line for Mr Boultbee........ you built or bought a home on a min 10 acre parcel with a septic system and drilled deep well for domestic water. You got what you paid for and knew this up front. Don't come to the collective city taxpayers to pay for a water or sewer system for your sparsely populated rural lifestyle. Suck it up and pay the unprotected fire insurance premium and just hope you never have to use it.
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Re: Spiller Road Fire

Post by XT225 »

-fluffy- wrote:Doesn't Spiller Road leave city limits shortly past the landfill?


I believe that the city limits is just PAST this particular house that burned. Thats a LONG run up there for a fully loaded fire truck; I bet it would be at least a 10 minute drive; mostly uphill. From the reports of the neighbour, the house was fully involved by the time the firemen arrived; doubt it would've been able to have been saved; even with hydrant protection. Twobits is correct though, in that a reservoir would be needed, ABOVE the houses in order to get pressure and for the limited number of houses up there, thats hardly justifyable. I bet the cost of home owners insurance is far cheaper than paying for the installation of hydrants and/or a reservoir. The city sure isn't going to cough up the dough. Its sort of like the 10 acre lots up Carmi; they all have wells, no hydrants and no fire protection; they knew that going in. In THIS case, however, the only difference is that most (but not all) of the Spiller road houses ARE within city boundaries and DO have fire protection. I think there are houses up Valleyview that still are without hydrants, though I could be wrong on that; they may have installed them by now. If I lived up Spiller, I would have my own cistern and pump handy, especially living so close to the Forest.
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Re: Spiller Road Fire

Post by GEW »

Spiller road leaves the city limits at the 1199 house #. Everything past there is in RDOS territory and, to the best of my knowledge, the Penticton FD will not respond. Some rural areas (like West Bench) the PFD will respond because the RDOS contracts them to do so; but not there.

Above the last city address (about half a kilometer and a 14% grade) there is a fairly large pond that dams Strutt Creek. I don't think it would be unreasonable for the city and RDOS to collectively build a water line from that reservoir, down the grade, to city limits: there would be plenty of water pressure by the time the water reaches the bottom of that grade and no pumping would be required. If this were to happen, I don't think the cost should be completely absorbed by residents because the vast majority of fire calls up there have been to the RDOS landfill site; to extinguish their underground fires that keep coming to the surface. There was an underground fire that burned under the dump for many years and the fire dept was always coming up- I understand it is now extinguished.
In any case, if a fire were to happen up Spiller again, perhaps better water access would prevent it from spreading to other parts of the city. Another reason hydrant installation should not be completely incurred by the area residents
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Re: Spiller Road Fire

Post by GEW »

P.S. sorry Two Bits, I read your post after the fact. You mentioned that surface streams and reservoirs can't be used for various requlatory reasons. Is there anyway around this? It seems crazy to not take advantage of a large reservoir like this when it can benefit the safety of the entire community. It wouldn't have to be treated if it was just for hydrant use.
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Re: Spiller Road Fire

Post by nepal »

The purchase price of remote homes normally take factors such as water supply, insurance costs, fire protection etc., into consideration. A similar home on as much land, in the city core, would likely cost more to buy.
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Re: Spiller Road Fire

Post by twobits »

GEW wrote:P.S. sorry Two Bits, I read your post after the fact. You mentioned that surface streams and reservoirs can't be used for various requlatory reasons. Is there anyway around this? It seems crazy to not take advantage of a large reservoir like this when it can benefit the safety of the entire community. It wouldn't have to be treated if it was just for hydrant use.


I suppose there is a way around pretty much everything but at what expense and who wants to pay for it. For example, is this pond area classified as a riperian zone? That alone would make it virtually impossible. Any time you are dealing with natural surface waters, there will be a pile of Gov't fingers in it. Disregard all of that though and assume it was approved. You are still looking at a minimum of 50k per kilometer for pipe install alone never mind the intake structures, hydrants etc. How many kilometers to the landfill and for how many homes?? Just not a wise use of tax dollars IMO.
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Re: Spiller Road Fire

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Re: Spiller Road Fire

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Burn the he!! out of it and create some wildlife winter range!
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Re: Spiller Road Fire

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Build an argument from authority, confusing association with causation, to create a false continuum that appears valid in light of the ad populum arguments that spin out of it.
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