Challenge Penticton

[FSmith59]

So why the difference in numbers?
Here's why. For starters Challenge offers a different cockney in racing than Ironman. For example one can argue that a team of participants that are local would spend less money in Penticton than say three ironman from Tokyo.

I'm well aware that this is challenges first swing at things in North America, I didn't see a world class event. This isn't Challenges first dance. I don't think there's anything wrong in expecting more. I said trade up bit down, I stand by the fact we lost out huge by losing Ironman.

That's a strong statement... All that has been mustered up in defence has been excuses and suggestions that in the future it may be what we lost. No one has been able to make an effective claim we got a better deal with Challenge and they surpassed expectations. No one. That's worth rattling some cages over.

It's the FIRST year!!!!!!!!! And this year, it did coincide with Ironman in Whistler, which it will not in the future. And it was the first Challenge ever race in North America, and the first one outside of Europe, ever.

Yes, believe it or not, there were a few factors that affected attendance. And again, it's the FIRST year!!!

I can't guarantee the attendance will get better, but I believe it will. It is a completely different format than Ironman. This one caters to more recreational triathletes, as well as families and team events.

Trust me, there are a ton more recreational athletes than there are professionals, in any sport, and that alone could eventually make this event eclipse the Ironman entry numbers. Why? Because those amatures might just rather bring their families to Penticton for the weekend and enjoy the scenery. Yes, Whistler is an awesome place too, but it is probably 3 times the cost to go there for a weekend. Here, the whole family can probably vacation while at Challenge for the same price one person can stay in Whistler for Ironman. Don't underestimate the wallets of regular people.

[3+141592]

Kind of sound like the same logic they used with the Concord... as the call it now the concord syndrome. That eventually people would accept the concept and embrace air travel at supersonic speeds at a higher cost if they waited for the idea to catch on, all they hjad to do was pump more money into this niche market, after awhile the argument was we've already pumped so much money into this, we have to keep investing.

Interesting parallel but I don't find it too appropriate as there's a bit more to the Concorde's story than that
(assuming that we're talking about the plane and not the grape...). Check here if interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde

Yup I take issue with the whole thing, it was a foolish move on the City's part.

Yes, your issue with the whole project, no matter if eventually sucessfull, is now quite clear to me.
I have really nothing else to add for now. Cheers mate.

[Madhue]

That's a strong statement... All that has been mustered up in defence has been excuses may be what we lost. No one has been able to make an effective claim we got a better deal with Challenge and they surpassed expectations. No one. That's worth rattling some cages over.

It's the FIRST year!!!!!!!!! And this year, it did coincide with Ironman in Whistler, which it will not in the future. And it was the first Challenge ever race in North America, and the first one outside of Europe, ever.

Yes, believe it or not, there were a few factors that affected attendance. And again, it's the FIRST year!!!

I can't guarantee the attendance will get better, but I believe it will. It is a completely different format than Ironman. This one caters to more recreational triathletes, as well as families and team events.

Not exactly proving me wrong here are you?

Trust me, there are a ton more recreational athletes than there are professionals, in any sport, and that alone could eventually make this event eclipse the Ironman entry numbers. Why? Because those amatures might just rather bring their families to Penticton for the weekend and enjoy the scenery. Yes, Whistler is an awesome place too, but it is probably 3 times the cost to go there for a weekend. Here, the whole family can probably vacation while at Challenge for the same price one person can stay in Whistler for Ironman. Don't underestimate the wallets of regular people.

yup there is a ton more recreational athletes than pros... But pros come here weeks before the event and train. Amateurs come and go over a weekend. Having a strong showing of both is a target market IMHO, can't see why you'd suggest otherwise.

[FSmith59]

Not exactly proving me wrong here are you?

No. I have not proven you wrong. Because proof of what may happen in the future is impossible.

I do believe it will prove to be succesful. At this time, that is simply my opinion.

Now to you...

You haven't proved you're right. Because of the exact same reasons.

You don't think it will be succesful. At this time, that is simply your opinion.

IMHO, I think you are working yourself towards an ulcer, being so sure of yourself, after one year of a new event.

Me, I'll give it a few years to either prove, or not prove itself. Then if it's a disaster, I'll get an ulcer. But at least I'll have a few more good years until I have stomach issues.

[Madhue]

No. I have not proven you wrong. Because proof of what may happen in the future is impossible.

Again I'm baffled as to what you saying here... I just have stated that no one has come forward here and stayed it was an amazing event and exceeded their expectations. Just in the future it will be better.. Possibly. It was their first go around. They are trying hard... And something about when Ironman first started.

Nothing to suggest it was a banner event.

That tells me a lot.

[FSmith59]

Again I'm baffled as to what you saying here... I just have stated that no one has come forward here and stayed it was an amazing event and exceeded their expectations. Just in the future it will be better.. Possibly. It was their first go around. They are trying hard... And something about when Ironman first started.

Nothing to suggest it was a banner event.

That tells me a lot.

I don't know what baffles you. Someone posted earlier that Ironman only had a whopping 20 entries in it's first year.

I'm really happy no one listened to your idea of what makes something succesful back then. Then there would have never even been an Ironman for you to idolize.

I'm starting to think you might have had some personal/business interest in Ironman as you doth protest too much!

It is really simple. It is the first year. The turnout was decent, all things considered. This event is catering to a different crowd than what Ironman caters to. Everyone, at least everyone on this forum, disagrees with you. Doesn't mean we are right, or you are, only time will tell.

No one said it was a banner event Only you are using those fancy words to try and justify your opinion.

You only have 1 real point in your 3 pages of babble. You don't like Challenge, because Ironman is way better.

That's really all it is. Any references to how one can or may compare to the other is lost on you.

Ironman, Ironman, Ironman!!!

But believe it or not, everything else is all relative to the initial topic.

Money spent that weekend, world recognition of Penticton...blah blah blah...

^^^^...yawn

I am now really bored with debating you, as you are not bringing anything new to the table, to debate.

[twobits]

yup there is a ton more recreational athletes than pros... But pros come here weeks before the event and train. Amateurs come and go over a weekend.

By definition, Pro's are those athletes that make their living in the sport. I think you are perhaps grossly overestimating the proportion of Pro's participating in Ironman to those that are just seeking a personal goal. In every Ironman race I ever watched, those that participated for the personal challenge and goal of just completing such a monumental feat, out numbered the pro's at least twenty to one.
So what superior economic benefits do these minority of Pro racers bring to our community. They are serious athletes. They don't party, wine and dine. They rent an empty condo at Apex for 500 for a month, buy their own healthy groceries and cook at home and train 10 hrs a day. Then they are gone the day after the race. I'll take the weekend warriors any day that stay 3 or 4 days, rent hotel rooms or B and B's, eat at local restaurants, do the wine tours with their families and buy local souveniers to cement their memory of the experience. It's the warriors that make any endurance race, Challenge or Ironman, an inspiration for the rest of us, not the Pro's.
Pro's leave with a purse to chase the next one. Warriors leave with life changing memories, and those memories pay better long term dividends to the community.

[fluffy]

It's likely premature to pass judgement after only one year. Next year, without the date conflict between Penticton and Whistler will provide a better indication. I'm not sure if the difference between pro athletes and recreational athletes is important at this stage, the bottom line for the city is most affected by sheer numbers. The difference between the numbers this year and next should provide some idea as to what sort of trend is going to take hold.

[XT225]

I think that its time to quit (there were only one or two posters on here, doing it) being negative on the Challenge Race. The "other" one isn't here anymore and highly Unlikely to return. I won't be negative on the other one; only to say that the new one is going to be different (same great course) and sometimes change is good. Cutting down Challenge won't help it grow, so why do it. ps: I also thought that since both Challenge and the other race are "businesses", that it was against the policy of Castanet to allow "negative business reviews"? We can't do that about a hamburger joint, so why would this be allowed? Just sayin!

[tmjones]

I like to be positive about the change. I hear more positive than negative about having the Challenge race. Yes, ironman was big! But the City made the decision and its time to move forward.
I believe there is a lot to learn for next year. We need to be supportive.
I have been a ironman street dance vendor for the past 6 years. I do not sell food or drinks and my sales were better this year on the Friday night Challenge street dance than ever before!
I do admit, I was concerned about the first year but I'm looking forward to seeing what great things this can bring to Penticton going forward.

[Madhue]

I like to be positive about the change. I hear more positive than negative about having the Challenge race. Yes, ironman was big! But the City made the decision and its time to move forward.
I believe there is a lot to learn for next year. We need to be supportive.
I have been a ironman street dance vendor for the past 6 years. I do not sell food or drinks and my sales were better this year on the Friday night Challenge street dance than ever before!
I do admit, I was concerned about the first year but I'm looking forward to seeing what great things this can bring to Penticton going forward.

Well still waiting for someone to make the claim that Challenge was a Banner Event.


The ridiculous concept that historically the beginnings of Triathlon in Penticton are someone how equal to what current times laughable, seriously. Imagine trading a top of the line sport-car straight across for a car that has the same top speed and handling of a car built in the 20`s... would we be saying its a good deal.

I will say that I am a little disappointed with ad hominem attacks but whatever, like I said I'm not on the side of argumentum populum. The suggestion that in some way I'm connected to Ironman did make me smile, it too is a fallacy and suggests someone's tin foil hat is a little snug.

Sure we can make excuses, we can be defensive, we can be evasive... but are folks answering the question I have purposed?
Did we witness a world Class Event in Challenge here in Penticton? I`ve argued we haven't.
Now without excuse making, without trips down memory lane. while many folks have been aggressively on the defense please note none of them have answered my question and claimed we saw a World Class Event here in Penticton.

[canuck500]

How can you expect a brand new event to be at the same level as the previous event when it took the previous event years to reach that level. That's the point everybody has been trying to make, how can you expect a brand new event to be at the same level as the previous event when it's the first year for the new event? Personally I think you just don't want to see anybody else's point.

[XT225]

The "other race" started out as only 23 participants. Had folks taken a negative attitude towards it back then, how could it have grown to over 2000? It couldn't have; bottom line. It has left the station and the new train is on the tracks now. A positive attitude, knowing that we have a superb course here in the South Okanagan and an excellent volunteer base means that it can only succeed. I still maintain that we are not allowed to give negative business reviews by Castanets own policy. Think before you speak.

[Madhue]

How can you expect a brand new event to be at the same level as the previous event when it took the previous event years to reach that level. That's the point everybody has been trying to make, how can you expect a brand new event to be at the same level as the previous event when it's the first year for the new event? Personally I think you just don't want to see anybody else's point.

Fine Ill address this fallacy of this is a new event and we should scale back our expectations.

when Penticton hosted its first Triathlon it was in its infancy, while we had under 25 take part in Canada there was a merger number just above that invested in the sport. For arguments sake lets say 50 registered athletes, which in my opinion is very high, but unless someone can prove me wrong that's the number ill be using. Truth of the matter is there were competitors from all over taking part, they mustered 23. in that time they estimated around 300 triathletes in the USA. so lets add those numbers shall we 350 5.7% or 6% of the market. Current Demographics in the USA claim an estimated 550,446 and 11,619 in Canada (2008, which I think is a little weak as its defiantly grown, but that the data I have.)

http://www.usatriathlon.org/about-multi ... phics.aspx
http://triathloncanada.com/page.ch2?uid=FactSheet2


562,065 is the conservative estimate of just North American Market, 1350 that attended of which just over half were relay teams. However just using the total 1350 we have just 0.24% of the North American market, and that's super generous truth is as we are comparing just Triathletes its just 0.10% of the North American Market. Now mathematically that not very effective.
http://www.pentictonwesternnews.com/news/221391731.html


Please stop playing the Its New Card and remember old Days. This sport is arguably at its apex, enjoying the biggest surge in popularity since its inception Claiming a 300% growth,

The most recent SFIA study — released in 2012 — tells us an estimated 1,992,000 individuals completed at least one triathlon in 2011

where were they? ... almost 2 million people on this planet complete a Triathlon in 2011.
http://www.usatriathlon.org/about-multi ... phics.aspx

please stop getting high on nostalgia, when we compare facts to fiction Challenge did not produce. As for all those venomously attacking my position suggesting we next year will be better, then you're simply admitted this year was a flop and you expect more next year. Therefore I really take no issue with you.

How can you expect a brand new event to be at the same level as the previous event when it took the previous event years to reach that level.

I'm expecting them to be an aggressive competitor. why is that so hard to accept? You drive a Yugo? is not why not?

[XT225]

Madhue, I won't argue with you as you ARE entitled to your opinion as is everyone in our Democracy. However, I think the future for Challenge Penticton is very bright. What happened (when Penticton council basically fired the WTC and Ironman) also happened in Roth Germany back in 2001 and look how they rose out of the ashes. I see the same thing happening here. The following is directly from the Challenge Roth website:

2001: WTC President Lew Friedland made unacceptable demands on Detlef Kühnel as regards organisation and financing, so that Kühnel terminated the contract with WTC in spring 2001. As a consequence Friedland granted the Ironman licence to Frankfurt. However, his prediction as regards the future of the new event in Roth turned out to be completely wrong. The myth of the Roth triathlon has not vanished at all after the Ironman trademark had gone - the positive image has been related less to the IM, but to Roth itself. Thanks to the support of foresighted sponsors, in particular Quelle and Post AG, and the commitment of new regional partners (N-Ergie, Sparkasse Mittelfranken-Süd), and with the unbelievable support and excitement of the spectators, the QCR has risen like a phoenix.