Wild horses take over hwy. & roads

[twobits]

This is actually an interesting topic. I've seen the program on TV about this. The elders will disagree with it. Stories passed down from generation to generation tell a different story. The horses never became extinct in North America. Picture graphs confirm a lot of the stories being passed on.

Are Horses an Alien or Invasive Species?
The first equids appeared about 56 million years ago in North America. Over millions of years they went through vast changes as they adapted to profoundly altering climates and habitats. Species arose, disappeared, or merged with others. Ultimately, the genus of the modern horse Equus (which also includes *bleep* and zebras) appeared in the fossil record some four million years ago and gave rise to a branch of caballine (true) horses that appeared about two million years ago.

Around the same time, some Equus species dispersed into Eurasia across the Bering land bridge, and some return migrations back and forth followed. But in North America, the caballine horses diversified into separate species leading to the appearance of today’s modern horse Equus caballus exclusively on this continent about 250,000 years ago. Over millennia, a wide variety in size and type of the modern horse continued to evolve throughout North America, and some populations migrated to Asia and spread to Europe.

But in North America, horses became the victim of the disappearance of large mammals between 13,000 and 7600 years ago. Fossils of ancient horses have been unearthed in the Dawson City area of the Yukon (Equus lambei), a small caballoid horse carbon dated to 10,000 years ago, and in southern Alberta (Equus conversidens), dated to 11,300 years ago and killed by early hunters.


The horse did not return to this continent until it arrived with Hernando Cortez in 1519. Those Spanish horses escaped or were turned loose. They rapidly populated the prairies and Great Plains where they settled into their ancestral grassland niche, contributing to the biodiversity of habitats and instinctively forming complex, social, hierarchical bands that defined the ancient behavioural patterns of their ancestors.

Pictograph records would be expected as horses were still in North America as late as 7600 years ago. Our First Nations were here long before that so they coexisted for several thousand years.

[A_Britishcolumbian]

twobits, i did not know you thought of yourself to be an authority on the subject. i had read your words elsewhere before, but never attributed them to you. now that i know they are yours i will tell you, you are wrong.

oral history tells us you are wrong, dna tells us you are wrong. i believe there are accounts of asians visiting before the 16th century that describe the presence of the horses as well.

[driveangry]

Are Horses an Alien or Invasive Species?
The first equids appeared about 56 million years ago in North America. Over millions of years they went through vast changes as they adapted to profoundly altering climates and habitats. Species arose, disappeared, or merged with others. Ultimately, the genus of the modern horse Equus (which also includes *bleep* and zebras) appeared in the fossil record some four million years ago and gave rise to a branch of caballine (true) horses that appeared about two million years ago.

Around the same time, some Equus species dispersed into Eurasia across the Bering land bridge, and some return migrations back and forth followed. But in North America, the caballine horses diversified into separate species leading to the appearance of today’s modern horse Equus caballus exclusively on this continent about 250,000 years ago. Over millennia, a wide variety in size and type of the modern horse continued to evolve throughout North America, and some populations migrated to Asia and spread to Europe.

But in North America, horses became the victim of the disappearance of large mammals between 13,000 and 7600 years ago. Fossils of ancient horses have been unearthed in the Dawson City area of the Yukon (Equus lambei), a small caballoid horse carbon dated to 10,000 years ago, and in southern Alberta (Equus conversidens), dated to 11,300 years ago and killed by early hunters.


The horse did not return to this continent until it arrived with Hernando Cortez in 1519. Those Spanish horses escaped or were turned loose. They rapidly populated the prairies and Great Plains where they settled into their ancestral grassland niche, contributing to the biodiversity of habitats and instinctively forming complex, social, hierarchical bands that defined the ancient behavioural patterns of their ancestors.

Pictograph records would be expected as horses were still in North America as late as 7600 years ago. Our First Nations were here long before that so they coexisted for several thousand years.

I've read this before and find it quite interesting. The pictograghs shown to me, I was told, were between 600 - 800 years old. I can't say for sure.
Historians and scientist have been known to be wrong or report what there financial supporters want them to say. I won't argue with the elders, I really enjoy their stories, their history as some like to call it.
If the horses aren't hurting anything, then I say leave them be.

The only thing that gets me ticked is when it's on reserve land or first nation related, it gets undo attention. When it has to do with a white person it gets little to no attention. There is one rancher in my area that is known for finding ways to get his sick and/or old cattle killed then collect insurance. Or the guy who took his dead calves and dumped them on the rivers edge. Nothing ever happened to them.

[Rosemary1]

WHAT!!!! feral vs. wild etc. Listen everyone. These horses are PIB horses- whether band or locates. Period. See how quickly PIB will sue if someone were to shoot on of these horses.

If anyone else allowed their animals to create a public hazard or be neglected as these horses are, the SPCA and law enforcement would be all over the them. But seems PIB gets a pass.

Oh yea of course they can't do anything to contain them -its about money. It's always about money. We can do this or that, just somebody else pick up the bill. Never take personal responsibility - just entitlement with hand out for everything it seems. Take a lesson on personal responsibility from Clarence Louie.

So to the PIB folks. Please take better care of your horses and contain them just like any non-PIB person would be expected to do -and for once do something on your own dime and stop whining about money. You will earn more respect .

[Dawnland]

Rosemary1;
Property rights and responsibilities exist on the reserve too. You obviously have no concept of the relationship PIB has with the RDOS and the City of Penticton with regard to these horses. Your close minded attitude is what keeps the region from sustainable economic growth. What business in their right mind would move to a small community that has, for generations, successfully alienated their neighbors and a complete portion of the population based on their race, hmmm? Have you had coffee with Donald Sterling lately? How did it work out for him?
There is a protocol agreement between the three parties and these attitudes are changing, do the city a favor, try to be part of the solution.

[twobits]

Your close minded attitude is what keeps the region from sustainable economic growth. What business in their right mind would move to a small community that has, for generations, successfully alienated their neighbors and a complete portion of the population based on their race, hmmm? Have you had coffee with Donald Sterling lately? How did it work out for him?
There is a protocol agreement between the three parties and these attitudes are changing, do the city a favor, try to be part of the solution.

With all due respect Dawnland, I think you are over estimating the influence a handful of rednecks have. It is bordering on a "poor me" attitude. While most on this side of the channel are not up to speed on recent developments and protocols, they are not stupid either. One only has to look a short distance north and south to see shining examples of success that came about as a result of strong and effective leadership. These leaders worked with the same rules and governance issues that the PIB faced yet who thrived and who shriveled? Perhaps you are too young to remember over the last three decades. Many have not forgotten the leadership of those times whose preference to business plans and development was camo gear and road blocks.
Hopefully things have turned a corner now with a younger new guard taking over. The horse issue has been a longstanding one and while Chief Kruger has not solved the problem, he has already been more proactive and communicative than any of PIB's past leadership and that is a good sign.

[Dawnland]

Twobits;
The time of strife that you are talking about are from days past when PIB was not ready for development. If the infrastructure and accurate planning are not in place, any projects are just window dressing on a pile of crap and probably doomed to fail. PIB went through a long time of healing, health and planning to be able to be informed and move forward.
I appreciate that you believe the 'rednecks' don't have much influence. It isn't about saving the 'feelings' of PIB resident (except the children) and a poor me attitude. This is about how potential developers and residents are viewing the region. Do you really think they would want to drop hundreds of thousands in an area that are still living in the '70s? Like I've seen on social networking lately, "I don't want to hear what they said about me, I want to hear what you said to defend me." That's the action that builds new consumer and producer confidence in a region. Together the region has done nothing to influence a change in the outside perception of our new relationship. In all regional studies, like the 'vital signs' analysis, PIB is not even considered or acknowledged. Heck, the map of the area hardly recognizes PIB exists.
When Osoyoos Indian Band developed, Tom and the city council stepped up and were very vocal about how the city was supporting these projects. They started doing joint marketing and pretty soon their relationships were heavily intertwined.
The horse issue has to stop being us vs. them. There is a number of people on both sides of the river who want the horses to be protected and yet remain 'free' while keeping residents safe. In the best interest of the region, it would be important for people to stop pointing fingers and step up to the plate. That is the kind of action that increases a perceived confidence in our communities.

[A_Britishcolumbian]

One only has to look a short distance north and south to see shining examples of success that came about as a result of strong and effective leadership.

twobits, with respect to the horses, what do you mean?

[NotNorthAnymore]

Twobits means that others have effectively dealt with the situation of the mutt horses in the areas that they control.

The sooner these abandoned mutts are taken in - or care of - or disposed of - the better it will be for all concerned.
They are not any ancient breed but just another group of abandoned horses. They are not any different than packs of abandoned dogs or cats that need to be controlled.

IMO

Just because you want to "stir the pot" so to speak and scream and holler that they are an ancient breed without proof and backing of the local band - does not mean that the rest of society needs to conform to your ideas of what these mutts are.

If they are that important to you - then work with the band and get them into a safe area.
If they are an ancient breed as you profess - then work with as many people inside and outside of the band structures to ensure that they are protected.

You have already stated in your posts that you think that animals are more important than people, or your family members.

So stand up - take charge and get it done - don't whine and complain to the rest of us - show leadership and action and others may be motivated to assist you.

[A_Britishcolumbian]

notnorthanymore, you seem to be making things up.

you want to

you think that animals are more important than people, or your family members.

please stop.

since the horses are native to bc, i'll leave 'wild' out of it for your sake, they should have free range. how can the individual herds exchange dna if not?

[NotNorthAnymore]

May 25th, 2014, 9:36 pm

notnorthanymore, i have clearly ansered your question, a human life, or one of my family is not worth more than the life of a wild animal, they are equal in the case of my family and wildlife.


That is copy and paste of your post on May 25th, 9:36 PM.
The bold of the single phrase is to highlight your statement.

I am positive that you say that animals are more important than people, or your family members.
Nothing made up by me - this is your post - your words - your comment.
Human life means nothing to you - only the lives of wild feral animals.

IMO you should be seeking professional help when you say that the lives of animals are of equal (or greater) value than that of your own family.

[coolworx]

We should sue the Spanish.

Afterall, all these feral horses can be traced to the Conquistadors!

[Ken7]

Ah, finally they are off the road and into the orchards. When will someone take responsibility here??

[twobits]

Ah, finally they are off the road and into the orchards. When will someone take responsibility here??

Not until we have one class of Canadian citizen and a common playbook of rules.
Quite clearly this is a handful or less of owners that are saying F you cuz it is my right to do as I wish because this is the rez.

IMO this kind of attitude really undermines First Nations concerns as stewards of the environment. You cannot simultaneously profess the desire to protect, when blatant disregard like this goes unaddressed. It is a hypocrisy that does not go unnoticed and undermines everything First Nations want us to believe about their culture. It would seem that culture and tradition are cards that are played only when convenient to the situation.
Until our government and or governments resolve this and make us all one Canadian Nation under one common rule of law, chit like this will go on forever.

[Brushy Bill]

All this complaining and bickering , and no one has toppled one horse with a hammer or a .22 ?
Finally an incident in the news with a vehicle accident involving a horse , wounded laying in the ditch , and no one steps to the plate to take care of it ? And then media gets a frame full of a bleeding heart pitying the poor colt , but no consideration is given to the traumatized driver that just smashed her vehicle , an expense brought on by someone elses lack of responsibility.
Maybe its time Joe Public stepped up and moved thse horses along , one way or another.