PIB Development - Thumbs-up! (maybe)

[Drip_Torch]

I just got the Architect's rendition on my new shop on an oxbow, I'm stoked!

Hmm, with the November 4, 2013 housekeeping amendment to Section 5.4.1 of our zoning bylaw, I can't see you having any trouble pulling a building permit from the city.

Unfortunately, I know a guy that must know an architect capable of this design. You might want to consider using him - apparently, you could gain a driveway down from the natural watercourse into your garage.

[driveangry]

You are part right. Bank financed properties will have that demand on them. Private financing such as might come from a real estate equity group may not have the same requirements in which case as you say, can get away with anything. And very often it is these investment equity groups that do the financing on these projects. The returns are very attractive to them and they could care less if the neighbouring community is negatively effected. You are quite wrong however that it is no different than property off reserve out of town limits. Any lands that are not covered by a municipal or city charter are then either within a Regional District or Crown Lands and I can assure you that code requirements are as inclusive as any municipality or city codes. Even the process of getting a building permit on Crown land would be a years long project. There are no lands as unique and exempt from rules and regs addressing permitted uses as Native Reserve Lands.

Yes the rules/laws are there for the Regional District but are rarely enforced is what I meant to say. Have you ever driven threw Cawston, Ollala, Hedley ?? Some very scary non coded dwellings there.

Native Reserve Lands are unique but are not exempt from rules and reg. There was a time in the past but not anymore, some Bands have a more strict process than non native lands. I built my house, non financed, with cash, on CP land, the difficulty I ran into was trying to get permits. Permits were needed for inspectors but permits were not needed or available for CP land, a catch 22. Inspection cert. were required for almost everything. Same thing with my business. A plan had to be given to the Band to prove it was a legal business and that waste was going to be handled and disposed of properly with no damage to the environment. I almost gave up on the house a few time during the building process but in the long run the headaches paid off.

[Rosemary1]

"Proof is in he pudding" Call me skeptical
We are told plan is to have commercial /retail places up by 2015 yet....
Construction has not yet started on bridge! seriously
PIB seems tighlipped about what retailers/commercial businesses have definitely signed up. Lots of rumours though.Why isn't this publicized on PIB web site and by the City?
Shouldn't this information be provided to taxpayers who are funding bridge and probably lots of infrastructure (sewage, water etc.)
Worst case scenario - bridge will be built and few takers for development and taxpayers will be out of luck.
What is deal here with recovery of costs of building bridge by PIB /businesses of taxpayer money. Will businesses pay taxes and to whom?
Does anyone actually know what businesses have committed to going into this development?


quote="twobits"]This is the Channel Crossing development that has been ongoing for several years now. Big mistake IMO. Retail is hardly surviving in Penticton now as it is. Coming soon......West Kelowna commercial model with box stores that close their doors after a year.
Hotel is not a bad idea though. Housing would be another smart alternative. Commercial, ain't gonna work and if by some miracle it does, it will be reflected in empty buildings that pay city taxes on this side of the channel.[/quote]

[Daspoot]

PIB seems tighlipped about what retailers/commercial businesses have definitely signed up. Lots of rumours though.Why isn't this publicized on PIB web site and by the City?
Shouldn't this information be provided to taxpayers who are funding bridge and probably lots of infrastructure (sewage, water etc.)

Nope, best to leave people who have already made up their minds in the dark as to specifics. Facts don't usually change their minds anyways.

That's the beauty of them doing it on their land, it's none of your, or my business, and they can do as they like.

Thank goodness the PIB is blowing the dust off the S.OK, it's fun to watch everything that goes scurrying for cover when the lights go on.

[mrmagoo]

Building codes are always enforced on reserves when it's being financed. Just different permits issued threw the band. Private structures on CP land that are not financed can get away with anything, no different than property off reserve out of the town limits.

A development like this will have a valid lease. The lease must be approved by the Federal government in accordance with the land management manual. The federal building code is at least as strict as the provincial and an approved development plan must be submitted including sewer/water. There are inspections and sign-offs. The manual stipulates the standards which must be met which meet or beat the City requirements and these are all incorporated as terms of the lease. There is no getting away with anything for a developer whether they need financing or not. Without a registered lease they have no legal interest - no sane developer is going to do that.

[mrmagoo]

"Proof is in he pudding" Call me skeptical
PIB seems tighlipped about what retailers/commercial businesses have definitely signed up. Lots of rumours though.Why isn't this publicized on PIB web site and by the City?

PIB has nothing to do with it except for building the bridge. The City definitely has nothing to do with it except for maybe some servicing agreement. This, like the Boonstock event, is being done on individually owned lands, not PIB general band lands. If you want more information call the number of the billboard as someone else stated earlier.

[Symbonite]

the only fear I have is that they are going to wreck the channel for the people that float down in it...because construction may happen during summer time?

[mrmagoo]

the only fear I have is that they are going to wreck the channel for the people that float down in it...because construction may happen during summer time?

Except you'd still be able to float down most of the way in the worst case and get off at the rez stop.

[southy]

Really magoo? Is this comment really necessary. Funny? Not!! Not in the least. You seem to have real issues with both Boonstock and Skaha Hills ... perhaps you would like to enlighten us all as to why. Just asking that's all.

[mrmagoo]

What are you talking about? I was saying that it is fine if the bridge interferes with the whole channel ride because you can still go half-way and get off at the gas station area on the res. The bus can pick up there too. It is only going to be for one season and I can certainly live with that. I'm strongly in favour of Skaha Hills and the bridge.

[twobits]

Or is it millions of tax dollars for a bridge to nowhere. Nowhere being land that does not contribute anything to the local tax base except for the cherry pick services they need.
Does anyone think that a business on the other side of the Green Ave bridge. or homeowners in Skaha Hills is going to give a rats butt that they contribute nadda to parks, community center, snow clearing of roads etc etc etc. The city does not even have the stones to implement a two tier user fee system for for fee amenities like the pool. Wake up people. Sure they will shop local....they have to. But it will be the taxpaying residents that pay for their parks, recreation, snow cleared roads yada yada yada that they will all be using.
Check out the finances of West Kelowna (westbank). They are broke. Thank you West Bank First Nation. Collect the revenue and let the poor saps in the city or regional district pay the bills.

[Anonymous123]

Or is it millions of tax dollars for a bridge to nowhere. Nowhere being land that does not contribute anything to the local tax base except for the cherry pick services they need.
Does anyone think that a business on the other side of the Green Ave bridge. or homeowners in Skaha Hills is going to give a rats butt that they contribute nadda to parks, community center, snow clearing of roads etc etc etc. The city does not even have the stones to implement a two tier user fee system for for fee amenities like the pool. Wake up people. Sure they will shop local....they have to. But it will be the taxpaying residents that pay for their parks, recreation, snow cleared roads yada yada yada that they will all be using.
Check out the finances of West Kelowna (westbank). They are broke. Thank you West Bank First Nation. Collect the revenue and let the poor saps in the city or regional district pay the bills.

I have to agree. Skaha Hills and the new development at Green Ave. will be on the same level as Westbench residents. All the amenities without contributing to the tax base. WFN in West Kelowna built, and are still building, commercial and residential space that is not contributing to the coffers of West Kelowna. Watch for the same impact in Penticton.

[mrmagoo]

PIB collects the taxes and provides the services, some through contract. http://pib.ca/?page_id=203

The City doesn't clear the snow from PIB lands - PIB does. Why would PIB pay for City snow clearing? Are you suggesting that adjacent municipalities should pay for each other's snow clearing?

Also, have you actually reviewed the service agreements with the City and the RDOS? Here are some links to some of them, complete copies to others don't seem to be publicly available, but I don't see anything indicating unfair "cherry-picking". If you can point me to a factual basis for this assertion I'd appreciate it.

Also, Skaha Hills and the Channel will not have "all the amenities". They pay full freight for sewer plus an admin fee if I understand the agreement correctly and they pay for water and other services themselves. And the RDOS doesn't get a "free ride" either. They have a service agreement with the City for water. With Kelowna for 911 and fire dispatch. The RDOS Area F only has about 2000 people (including kids) and they have made a $20,000/year contribution to the Penticton Community Centre since the early 1980s and there is a good explanation as to why moving to a two tier system would probably not help the matters (only between 330 and 600ish Area F visits per year counting each visit) http://areaf.rdos.bc.ca/cms/?q=node/103

http://www.castanet.net/news/Penticton/ ... -residents
http://www.civicinfo.bc.ca/Library/Firs ... --2008.pdf
http://www.rdosmaps.bc.ca/min_bylaws/co ... eement.pdf
http://www.pentictonherald.ca/news/arti ... l?mode=jqm
http://www.rdosmaps.bc.ca/min_bylaws/co ... eement.pdf

[twobits]

PIB collects the taxes and provides the services, some through contract. http://pib.ca/?page_id=203

The City doesn't clear the snow from PIB lands - PIB does. Why would PIB pay for City snow clearing? Are you suggesting that adjacent municipalities should pay for each other's snow clearing?

Also, have you actually reviewed the service agreements with the City and the RDOS? Here are some links to some of them, complete copies to others don't seem to be publicly available, but I don't see anything indicating unfair "cherry-picking". If you can point me to a factual basis for this assertion I'd appreciate it.

Also, Skaha Hills and the Channel will not have "all the amenities". They pay full freight for sewer plus an admin fee if I understand the agreement correctly and they pay for water and other services themselves. And the RDOS doesn't get a "free ride" either. They have a service agreement with the City for water. With Kelowna for 911 and fire dispatch. The RDOS Area F only has about 2000 people (including kids) and they have made a $20,000/year contribution to the Penticton Community Centre since the early 1980s and there is a good explanation as to why moving to a two tier system would probably not help the matters (only between 330 and 600ish Area F visits per year counting each visit) http://areaf.rdos.bc.ca/cms/?q=node/103

http://www.castanet.net/news/Penticton/ ... -residents
http://www.civicinfo.bc.ca/Library/Firs ... --2008.pdf
http://www.rdosmaps.bc.ca/min_bylaws/co ... eement.pdf
http://www.pentictonherald.ca/news/arti ... l?mode=jqm
http://www.rdosmaps.bc.ca/min_bylaws/co ... eement.pdf

Are you really that naive. The services they are paying for are a drop in the bucket compared to what they are receiving as community members. West Bench is a perfect example and they are paying for more than PIB lands ever will under the servicing agreements. Please do tell what PIB lands wills contribute to all the city amenities. Of course they will snow plow their own roads but once Skaha Hills residents hit the highway, are they contributing to the roads past that point....yet they will say they live in the City of Penticton and have an address that says so. hey will also happily use the parks, beaches, library, ice rinks yadda yadda and not pay a dime for them.

[mrmagoo]

Skaha Hills residents will be residents on PIB lands, not the City of Penticton. They will pay taxes to PIB and they will receive services from PIB. Some of those services will be through agreements with the RDOS and the City (like fire and sewer) and it appears that the City adds a 15% admin surcharge on top of full cost recovery.

PIB already pays for hospitals, library, and has a service agreement with the RDOS which I haven't reviewed but if you can find a copy we would see what is being paid - it amounts to $50 000 a year. Look at their budget - it is published online. For example, in 2012 they paid:

142,000 for fire protection
50,000 for a service agreement with the RDOS (for what services we might ask)
57,000 to the hospital district
32,000 to the city for sewer agreement not even being used yet
31,000 addition to the City for fire protection
14,000 to BC Assessment
http://sp.fng.ca/fngweb/597_budget_by-law_2012.PDF

Over 1/3 of the tax budget goes to other governments or external services, another 1/3 goes to homeowner grants and they still have to build and maintain roads, run a tax department and provide government services on the remainder.

The City does not pay for highways, taxpayers do as a whole and Skaha Hills residents pay tax. As far as using City amenities, how about shopping in the City and bringing revenue to local businesses? Should they be charged extra for coming to town and spending money? How about all the people using the channel and particularly the parkway, which belongs to PIB - or the road to Apex? What about all the people dumping garbage on the reserve from the City which PIB has to pay to clean up? What about the money needed to build future amenities on PIB lands that residents of Penticton will use?

There will always be mutual use with benefits and drawbacks between adjacent tax jurisdictions. And how exactly do you know that Westbench pays more than PIB does under the service agreements? Please post the factual reference for this. My understanding is that they pay the same amount or more for services from the City it is just that they pay it to the RDOS who gives it over to the City.

Please point me to the service agreement where they are getting a free ride.