Silent Majority in Summerland: Urban Growth Strategy

[NextGen]

to totoramona

Are you denying that this was posted on that page? and remember I have no need to post the untruth or gossip and malicious comments, Sorry, the silent majority does not have to resort to vandalism or bullying or misinformation unlike the trademark of Anti Swap Group. They cant argue on there on merit so they turn to personal insults and cruelty and criminal activity.

Facts are Facts I can post many links to if you wish.

[totoramona]

NextGen:

The vandalism has also been reported on Castanet, does that mean Castanet was involved? I question your interpretation of things, NextGen. It may be one person that continues to resort to vandalism, but this holds no bearing on the Stop the Swap group as a whole, nor 99% of those who share this group's sentiment. You keep hurling accusations like bullying, misinformation, cruelty and personal insults, and yet you provide no first hand proof of anything. In fact, of everything I have read, both here and on the facebook page, you are the only one making these accusations. Can't argue on merit? What! The Stop the Swap groups provides plenty of factual reasons for their position.

[Daspoot]

NextGen:

<snip> but this holds no bearing on the Stop the Swap group as a whole, nor 99% of those who share this group's sentiment. <snip>

I think it can't help but reflect poorly on the Stop the Swap group, not matter what their involvement or non-involvement in it was.

In fact, it reflects so badly on them it would almost be the perfect thing to do if you supported the swap, but I don't think anyone is that devious on either side.

I think it was exactly what it looked like. A staunch anti-swapper losing his/her cool and doing great damage to their cause, and hurting a lot of good people doing the best they can regardless of what side of the issue they may lie on.

Political Terrorism, Canadian Redneck style.

[NextGen]

No matter how you look at this, the vandalism that took place here in Summerland on Good Friday, it's dreadfully wrong. there is no justification for it. All we ask is debate with truth, facts, figures and be respectful and not ruthless. The negative behavior this group has created, it is now their demise, its their own fault. They cant even take responsibility for bad behavior or at least reprehend the people that have been doing it or participating in it. Maybe, Anti-Swap Group felt this was their last strike of fear at the City and Council and Mayor and Summerland Residents, it's a sad and pathetic attempt. Majority of us don't fall for those type of antics and will not be intimidated.


Getting down to the real issue > This proposal was an initiative brought on by Summerland Residents for an Urban growth Strategy, so that the town of Summerland can sustain itself for growth for the next 50 years. It is up to the ALC in the end. The Public Hearing is Tuesday, April 22nd, at the Summerland Secondary High School Gym at 7:00pm . I hope people come out and speak or at least send in your letters. Don't let the behavior of the Anti-Swap group deter you away from vocalizing.


Questions Summerland Residents want answered by the Stop The Swap Group


Q. A real concern we have with Councilor Waterman, how is he allowed to not have an open mind during this whole process and the other Councilors have to? Where is his democratic oath to our community to listen to both sides?

Q What we find completely perplexing besides the fact that this councilman is not being democratic, but how can Waterman make those statements back in 2005 and currently for the Anti-Swap group has made the opposite statement about the same ALR land today in question? Waterman is contradicting himself, don't you think? I agree with “Old Boy” I don’t think that the viability of that land has changed since 2005, but they are trying to tell us something different today!!. This is completely ridiculous at this point, he seems to only working with this special lobbyist group.


Q Is the leader of the group Stop the Swap being paid to do this? or is this a volunteered position?

Q. Are some of the Stop the Swap members leasing their land to foreign investment?

Q Are some of the Stop the Swap member’s hiring temp foreign workers while the Okanagan has a high unemployment rate?

Q. What realistic answers have Stop the Swap provided to Summerland residents, on how to help with the economic challenges we are facing and what will become of Summerland’s future growth?


Q Why have some members of Stop the Swap member’s commented that they don’t want growth and people should stay out of our town? Is that a socially responsible comment?

Q. Does Stop The Swap Group NOT care about the non-farmers that live here?

Q. Does Stop the Swap realize that farmers get subsidized in many ways, but the rest of us residents don’t?

Q Another concern we have and should be addressed, the volunteer member's that are on the Advisory Planning and OCP Committee here in Summerland. Some of these member's, declared their positions in social media before hearing all sides of the proposal so when they voted we believe it was a biased vote for the Anti -Swap. How is that democratic by declaring your position before the voting and information packages are handed to you? Are these people going to be on the committee once again, knowing that they do not approach their responsibility and democratic oath and listen to concerns of ALL Summerland Residents? Should they not be listening to the proposal that was worked on by the district for a year and a half before making any decisions?

We have a lot more questions, please answer these first.

[old boy]

No matter how you look at this, the vandalism that took place here in Summerland on Good Friday, it's dreadfully wrong. there is no justification for it. All we ask is debate with truth, facts, figures and be respectful and not ruthless. The negative behavior this group has created, it is now their demise, its their own fault. They cant even take responsibility for bad behavior or at least reprehend the people that have been doing it or participating in it. Maybe, Anti-Swap Group felt this was their last strike of fear at the City and Council and Mayor and Summerland Residents, it's a sad and pathetic attempt. Majority of us don't fall for those type of antics and will not be intimidated.


Getting down to the real issue > This proposal was an initiative brought on by Summerland Residents for an Urban growth Strategy, so that the town of Summerland can sustain itself for growth for the next 50 years. It is up to the ALC in the end. The Public Hearing is Tuesday, April 22nd, at the Summerland Secondary High School Gym at 7:00pm . I hope people come out and speak or at least send in your letters. Don't let the behavior of the Anti-Swap group deter you away from vocalizing.


Questions Summerland Residents want answered by the Stop The Swap Group


Q. A real concern we have with Councilor Waterman, how is he allowed to not have an open mind during this whole process and the other Councilors have to? Where is his democratic oath to our community to listen to both sides?

Q What we find completely perplexing besides the fact that this councilman is not being democratic, but how can Waterman make those statements back in 2005 and currently for the Anti-Swap group has made the opposite statement about the same ALR land today in question? Waterman is contradicting himself, don't you think? I agree with “Old Boy” I don’t think that the viability of that land has changed since 2005, but they are trying to tell us something different today!!. This is completely ridiculous at this point, he seems to only working with this special lobbyist group.


Q Is the leader of the group Stop the Swap being paid to do this? or is this a volunteered position?

Q. Are some of the Stop the Swap members leasing their land to foreign investment?

Q Are some of the Stop the Swap member’s hiring temp foreign workers while the Okanagan has a high unemployment rate?

Q. What realistic answers have Stop the Swap provided to Summerland residents, on how to help with the economic challenges we are facing and what will become of Summerland’s future growth?


Q Why have some members of Stop the Swap member’s commented that they don’t want growth and people should stay out of our town? Is that a socially responsible comment?

Q. Does Stop The Swap Group NOT care about the non-farmers that live here?

Q. Does Stop the Swap realize that farmers get subsidized in many ways, but the rest of us residents don’t?

Q Another concern we have and should be addressed, the volunteer member's that are on the Advisory Planning and OCP Committee here in Summerland. Some of these member's, declared their positions in social media before hearing all sides of the proposal so when they voted we believe it was a biased vote for the Anti -Swap. How is that democratic by declaring your position before the voting and information packages are handed to you? Are these people going to be on the committee once again, knowing that they do not approach their responsibility and democratic oath and listen to concerns of ALL Summerland Residents? Should they not be listening to the proposal that was worked on by the district for a year and a half before making any decisions?

We have a lot more questions, please answer these first.

Great questions Next Gen,I doubt you will get any straight answers,if any at all??!! They aren't accountable to anyone,not like being in an elected position on Council!

[totoramona]

First I have to say, I share the sentiments of the Stop The Swap group, but I am not a member -- not really sure what it takes to be member, either. I haven't been to any of the recent meetings either, so I can't really answer all of these questions, but as someone who cares about ALL of the farmland left in BC, I will answer some of these questions with my own opinions.

Questions Summerland Residents want answered by the Stop The Swap Group


Q. A real concern we have with Councilor Waterman, how is he allowed to not have an open mind during this whole process and the other Councilors have to? Where is his democratic oath to our community to listen to both sides?

For this question, I haven't been to these meetings, but I have heard second hand about them. How have you come to the conclusion that Waterman's mind is NOT open, but Perrino's mind IS open? I have been told that she went on and on ad noseum about the benefits of the swap, so long in fact, that the crowd could barely stand it any more. She has been on the radio saying, "we just haven't convinced the public yet of all the benefits of this swap!" That doesn't sound like an open mind! Waterman has an opinion on the matter, for sure, but I think all of the councillors have an opinion, you just don't like Watermans.

Q What we find completely perplexing besides the fact that this councilman is not being democratic, but how can Waterman make those statements back in 2005 and currently for the Anti-Swap group has made the opposite statement about the same ALR land today in question? Waterman is contradicting himself, don't you think? I agree with “Old Boy” I don’t think that the viability of that land has changed since 2005, but they are trying to tell us something different today!!. This is completely ridiculous at this point, he seems to only working with this special lobbyist group.

Here, I know a bit about what happened in 2005. Waterman hasn't contradicted himself. He didn't agree with the removal of the ALR land back then. This is because it was land in the ALR and had value for certain reasons within the ALR. It wasn't right to take it out then. Now, they are proposing to put it back in the ALR as a swap for even better ALR land. It isn't as good as the land downtown. This doesn't mean it has no value, just that it isn't as good as the land they are proposing to take out now. No contradiction. None of the land should have been taken out. The ALR was meant to preserve land... not be an ATM machine for development. Councillor Waterman is an agrologist with a professional knowledge of agricultural land. It is his specialty. He isn't working for a lobbyist group! He supports the Provincial ALR and reasons to remove ALR land would have to be pretty damn compelling. Very different.

Q Is the leader of the group Stop the Swap being paid to do this? or is this a volunteered position?

Who would pay her?!? From what I have seen, this is simply a group of people with a shared sentiment!

Q. Are some of the Stop the Swap members leasing their land to foreign investment?

How is this question relevant? It seems to me you are attempting to show some hypocrisy here. What if they are? Firstly, it's not your business, secondly, so what? How does that impact a municipal strategy remove ALR lands for housing? How does that relate to the issue of preserving land to grow food on? Only 5% of BC land is viable for food production. If foreign investment is growing food, it's still growing food. Relevance???

Q Are some of the Stop the Swap member’s hiring temp foreign workers while the Okanagan has a high unemployment rate?

Again, relevance? This is a federal policy meant to ensure that farmers have workers for their crops. Many local workers do not want to work for the wages paid by farms. We all know that. Did anyone see the piece on A&W tonight? Foreign workers in place of local... working at a fast food restaurant. How about that?

Q. What realistic answers have Stop the Swap provided to Summerland residents, on how to help with the economic challenges we are facing and what will become of Summerland’s future growth?

This question is misplaced. This is a question for city staff and council. Just because they cannot provide an alternative, doesn't mean it is ok to turn our limited farmland into housing developments. This is not a sustainable or forward thinking plan. It is the obvious, easy way out, that can not be used indefinitely, because there will be nothing to eat! It shouldn't continually be the farmers job to defend the importance of farmland! It shouldn't be the farmers job to come up with economical solutions other than turning farmland into houses. This isn't their specialty or their job! Farming is their job. Economics is someone else's job, just leave the farmland alone!

Q Why have some members of Stop the Swap member’s commented that they don’t want growth and people should stay out of our town? Is that a socially responsible comment?

This isn't a helpful comment, agreed.

Q. Does Stop The Swap Group NOT care about the non-farmers that live here?

From what I can tell, the Stop the Swap group cares very much about non-farmers. They care about food. They care about sustainability. They care about the long-term future... beyond 50 years. They want to preserve our food security for ever!! Again, only 5 % of BC is agriculturally viable.

Q. Does Stop the Swap realize that farmers get subsidized in many ways, but the rest of us residents don’t?

This is an unfair statement. Many industries are subsidized in many ways. First of all, when farmers are subsidized, this means that the food you buy is subsidized, which means that your grocery bill is lower, which means that you are subsidized too, whenever you buy food. Secondly, oil is subsidized, research and development is subsidized, etc etc etc. Thirdly, some of the richest corporations and banks have plenty of tax loop-holes etc... so let's not even get into a discussion about who is getting free ride where... And again, relevance? Where does this even come into play when it comes to municipal urban growth strategy decisions???

Q Another concern we have and should be addressed, the volunteer member's that are on the Advisory Planning and OCP Committee here in Summerland. Some of these member's, declared their positions in social media before hearing all sides of the proposal so when they voted we believe it was a biased vote for the Anti -Swap. How is that democratic by declaring your position before the voting and information packages are handed to you? Are these people going to be on the committee once again, knowing that they do not approach their responsibility and democratic oath and listen to concerns of ALL Summerland Residents? Should they not be listening to the proposal that was worked on by the district for a year and a half before making any decisions?

Ok.. here I would again question why you believe those with opinions against the swap are biased, but those who voted for the swap are unbiased? What leads you to believe this discrepancy? I don't know how you could know this.

I hope this sheds some light onto the perspective that an "Anti-swap" supporter has. I am a member of no group, have not shown up for any meeting, but I would support a decision against swapping good agricultural land for land of lesser quality, simply for the purpose of building more houses for people that will not necessarily increase the economic viability of our Summerland businesses, nor create a net increase in our municipal revenue.

[NextGen]

totoramona

First I have to say, I share the sentiments of the Stop The Swap group, but I am not a member -- not really sure what it takes to be member, either. I haven't been to any of the recent meetings either, so I can't really answer all of these questions, but as someone who cares about ALL of the farmland left in BC, I will answer some of these questions with my own opinions.

I appreciate your enthusiasm and answers, your comments are despondent and repetitive but I respect your opinion. Toto you probably don't live in Summerland and have absolutely no idea what is happening here. We want to hear from the Stop The Swap Group, and Waterman and Mr. Finnis .

Your answers sound a little biased Toto, we wont be putting too much weight into your comments, but thanks for participating.

[NextGen]

Oh Look more personal attacks by the Anti Swap Group on the Penticton Herald Page, are we surprised by their bullying tactics?

The next municipal election is only a few months away and candidates and voters are beginning the process of sorting out whether or not to run, and who to vote for. Reflecting on the performance of the local incumbents is disturbing to say the least, and the main reason for the uproar over the proposed ALR land swap in Summerland is very simple, the people do not trust Summerland city council to do the right thing. An OCP is no longer an OCP, and designer surveys have become a tool for politicians to pursue their personal and political agenda.The democratic process has been displaced by arrogance. Accountability and transparency have become political slurs, a disturbing trend we see at all levels of government. At the recent meeting held to explore the reasons for wanting to swap some ALR properties and to answer some questions, Summerland Mayor Perrino displayed an incredible attitude of intransigence, refusing to consider the feedback and advice from specialists, the APC, experienced city staff and about 11,000 citizens of Summerland. Perrino insisted we do not build on hillsides, that we must use the flat lands for development, while people around the world build on hillsides to be able to grow crops on level soil. Perrino's ambition to bring the people to fill the stores also runs contrary to common sense. The reason the stores are empty is because the people go elsewhere to shop, and newcomers will do the same. Electronic billboards will not change that If you want people to shop local, all you have to do is give them a reason. Perrino has become an incredible liability to the orderly development and growth of our town. She should feel obliged to resign now, to allow mayoralty candidates some time to decide and to assemble and organize their campaign teams.
Andy Thomsen
Summerland

Comments

70opelGT
Personal attacks that should fix things Andy

Common Sense
Andy that's the problem with your group, personal attacks. again with the bullying and vandalism your group just is a bunch of bullies. Stop being selfish, most of us Summerland residents WANT the proposal to go through.

http://www.pentictonherald.ca/letters-to-the-editor/perrino-should-resign.html

[NextGen]

Found this comment too, I admire this resident for speaking up.

Some Summerland residents are selfish

Tuesday, 22 April 2014

I drove down Main Street in Summerland on Sunday and noticed nine businesses closed or closing. The Summerland golf course is short of members and having to advertise on TV, the curling club is underutilized, the swimming pool and recreation centre are losing money, and the arts community is less active. I hope all of those opposed to development in Summerland don't want to swim, golf, curl, attend local theatre or enjoy other clubs or groups. You cannot move here to live the 'rural life' and then lock the doors to others, unless you are happy to see the demise of clubs, organizations, recreational facilities, and businesses that have provided us the quality of life we have enjoyed. The population of Summerland has been dropping for 10 years. We need more residents to keep Summerland an active and vibrant town. The practical and cost-effective way to do this is to develop housing around the downtown core where services already exist. I have lived here for 32 years and hate to see the deterioration of our community due to the short-sightedness and selfishness of some local residents.
Terry Manders
Summerland

Comments

# Mikea
Excellent view point. Penticton suffers from the same vocal minority who poo poo every attempt at progress!


# 70opelGT
The CAVES rule Summerland, the ALR is just the excuse this time.


# Common Sense
Very well communicated, I agree with you. 100%

http://www.pentictonherald.ca/letters-to-the-editor/some-summerland-residents-are-selfish.html

[twobits]

Several weeks ago I postulated to the no growth folks something along the lines of........"and very soon you will be wondering why your children are being bused to school in Penticton". I found one councillors answer in the Penticton Herald last week very interesting. They were all asked what business they would open in Summerland. The numbers are factual and they are stark. Here is his answer.



LLOYD CHRISTOPHERSON: I would be very reluctant to start a business in Summerland because of the declining school enrolment. Based upon head count data provided by the Ministry of Education Summerland Secondary, Summerland Middle School and Giants Head Elementary are at an all-time low.
SSS had 822 students in 1998-1999 and in 2012-2013 they had 449 students. The 822 was before the middle school was built. I think the capacity is 650.
Summerland Middle School in 2000-2001 had an enrollment of 410 students and in 2012-2013 they were down to 309 students.
Giant's Head Elementary in 1999-2001 had 448 students and in 2012-2013 it was 323.
Since 1999/2000, there has been a decrease in enrolment every year except 2001/2002 and 2002/2003 where numbers held steady with a 0.5 and 0.3 per cent increase. Following 2002/2003 there has been a steady decline in enrollment. There has been a 33.5 per cent decline over the last 10 year period.
We could lose our high school and one elementary school (for starters) in five years. The Ministry just cancelled the major renovation of the high school gym. How many young families do you think would move here when they know their children may have to bused to Penticton after middle school?

The last line is particularly prophetic. Losing commercial storefronts is certainly a loss to a community but when schools close, it is a coffin nail to what the definition of a viable community is. Summerland could just become an outlying cluster of homes that people only commute to and from. Ok Falls north.

[antelee]

Took me awhile - CAVES - Citizens Against Virtually Everything
(although, I don't think that is true of everyone in town - especially young families who want to live here in an affordable house and want their children to go to school here)

[0gopogo]

NextGen-I tried to click on you link to the article. It's wants me to log in, and I can't see how or where to get an account.

[url]http://www.pentictonherald.ca/log-in.html?return=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5wZW50aWN0b25oZXJhbGQuY2EvbGV0dGVycy10by10aGUtZWRpdG9yL3BlcnJpbm8tc2hvdWxkLXJlc2lnbi5odG1s[/url]

[NextGen]

NextGen-I tried to click on you link to the article. It's wants me to log in, and I can't see how or where to get an account.

http://www.pentictonherald.ca/log-in.html?return=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5wZW50aWN0b25oZXJhbGQuY2EvbGV0dGVycy10by10aGUtZWRpdG9yL3BlcnJpbm8tc2hvdWxkLXJlc2lnbi5odG1s

Ogo, you need to go to the home page here is the link, on the top right hand corner there is a button to register or log in.

http://www.pentictonherald.ca/

[Daspoot]

Good points By David Gregory and Carsten Nielsen in letters to the editor of previous Summerland Reviews that found their way to my place.

Points that don't seem to get any press or debate here or elsewhere.

Worth searching out if you can.

As I mentioned, I'm more of a fence-sitter than anything on this matter, but I'm always willing to listen to logic from either side. What do an ex-Mayor and top notch local contractor know anyways....

There is a lot of good ammunition for the Anti-Swap side, but their points seem focused in other areas.

[NextGen]

Several weeks ago I postulated to the no growth folks something along the lines of........"and very soon you will be wondering why your children are being bused to school in Penticton". I found one councillors answer in the Penticton Herald last week very interesting. They were all asked what business they would open in Summerland. The numbers are factual and they are stark. Here is his answer.



LLOYD CHRISTOPHERSON: I would be very reluctant to start a business in Summerland because of the declining school enrolment. Based upon head count data provided by the Ministry of Education Summerland Secondary, Summerland Middle School and Giants Head Elementary are at an all-time low.
SSS had 822 students in 1998-1999 and in 2012-2013 they had 449 students. The 822 was before the middle school was built. I think the capacity is 650.
Summerland Middle School in 2000-2001 had an enrollment of 410 students and in 2012-2013 they were down to 309 students.
Giant's Head Elementary in 1999-2001 had 448 students and in 2012-2013 it was 323.
Since 1999/2000, there has been a decrease in enrolment every year except 2001/2002 and 2002/2003 where numbers held steady with a 0.5 and 0.3 per cent increase. Following 2002/2003 there has been a steady decline in enrollment. There has been a 33.5 per cent decline over the last 10 year period.
We could lose our high school and one elementary school (for starters) in five years. The Ministry just cancelled the major renovation of the high school gym. How many young families do you think would move here when they know their children may have to bused to Penticton after middle school?

The last line is particularly prophetic. Losing commercial storefronts is certainly a loss to a community but when schools close, it is a coffin nail to what the definition of a viable community is. Summerland could just become an outlying cluster of homes that people only commute to and from. Ok Falls north.

Great post bang on, thank you for sharing, I am sharing this post I saw on the Herald I think it is very appropriate.

Seems like a pretty simple solution to all this madness. The only thing that is happening is they are changing the zoning. Those that currently own the land can STILL farm if they so choose (and most of the land currently appears to have not been farmed for some time). When and if that land goes up for sale in future, all those in favor of keeping it in the ALR can pool their money together and purchase the land and then farm it to provide local food for the community.