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Another area in IH with Doctor shortage

North Okanagan topics including Vernon, Coldstream, Lumby, Armstrong, Enderby and Spallumcheen.

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Re: Another area in IH with Doctor shortage

Postby Alvis » Nov 18th, 2012, 2:01 pm

bob vernon wrote:Not only have the small hospitals in Enderby and Armstrong closed, but the number of funded beds at the Vernon hospital has also been reduced. When you start adding the Enderby and Armstrong reductions to the Vernon reductions (now 148?), the shortfall is enormous.

The hospital in Armstrong was very valuable. It had an operating theatre and took some of the surgery pressure off of Vernon. But no more...... and the wait times get longer. And now we hear the Westside/Westbank/West Kelowna band is going to open a for-profit hospital. And the province just lets the slide continue.

"Your hip replacement surgery is scheduled for July of 2014, sir. But if you'd care to swipe a valid credit card, we can move your surgery up to next Tuesday."

Youa re 100% correct about the loss of beds being at the root of the problem. Gardengirl doesn't get it. I wonder if she too is a BC Liberals supporter? These palces lose their hosptials and still re-elect the same people who made it all possible. I talked to a 30 year resident of Enderby last summer and they said "Enderby had a hospital?" This was while we were sitting in the ER in Vernon waiting for hours and hours. This 30 year Enderby resident was being very vocal about ER wait times and generally a nuisance.
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Re: Another area in IH with Doctor shortage

Postby gardengirl » Nov 18th, 2012, 3:36 pm

What are you talking about? I don't get what? The province closed these small hospitals and there are now thousands of residents, many of whom are seniors, who have virtually no healthcare at all.

Perhaps if you are trying to use sarcasm, you should indicate it in your post. I did ask from the get go, if you were trying to be smart. Translation: Are you being sarcastic?
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Re: Another area in IH with Doctor shortage

Postby Alvis » Nov 18th, 2012, 3:44 pm

gardengirl wrote:What are you talking about? I don't get what? The province closed these small hospitals and there are now thousands of residents, many of whom are seniors, who have virtually no healthcare at all.

Perhaps if you are trying to use sarcasm, you should indicate it in your post. I did ask from the get go, if you were trying to be smart. Translation: Are you being sarcastic?

Best review the thread. You opened with this little gem:
gardengirl wrote:Are you trying to be smart? Enderby used to have a hospital. It was closed several years ago.

You ought to be nicer to people.
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Re: Another area in IH with Doctor shortage

Postby Verminator » Nov 18th, 2012, 4:41 pm

Alvis wrote:
bob vernon wrote:Not only have the small hospitals in Enderby and Armstrong closed, but the number of funded beds at the Vernon hospital has also been reduced. When you start adding the Enderby and Armstrong reductions to the Vernon reductions (now 148?), the shortfall is enormous.

The hospital in Armstrong was very valuable. It had an operating theatre and took some of the surgery pressure off of Vernon. But no more...... and the wait times get longer. And now we hear the Westside/Westbank/West Kelowna band is going to open a for-profit hospital. And the province just lets the slide continue.

"Your hip replacement surgery is scheduled for July of 2014, sir. But if you'd care to swipe a valid credit card, we can move your surgery up to next Tuesday."

Youa re 100% correct about the loss of beds being at the root of the problem. Gardengirl doesn't get it. I wonder if she too is a BC Liberals supporter? These palces lose their hosptials and still re-elect the same people who made it all possible. I talked to a 30 year resident of Enderby last summer and they said "Enderby had a hospital?" This was while we were sitting in the ER in Vernon waiting for hours and hours. This 30 year Enderby resident was being very vocal about ER wait times and generally a nuisance.


:rate10: I'd be willing to bet that the chronic bed shortages could be solved and the closed hospitals in small-town BC re-opened for far less than the massive administration costs of the Health Authorities. Returning local control of hospitals to the communities they're supposed to serve would be a great first step in solving the problems of the health care system, including shortages of qualified staff.
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Re: Another area in IH with Doctor shortage

Postby Mama » Nov 18th, 2012, 9:23 pm

Enderby Hospital will always be missed by those that remember it...and so will the good Doctors that have left the "little City"
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Re: Another area in IH with Doctor shortage

Postby Alvis » Nov 19th, 2012, 12:53 am

Verminator wrote:
:rate10: I'd be willing to bet that the chronic bed shortages could be solved and the closed hospitals in small-town BC re-opened for far less than the massive administration costs of the Health Authorities. Returning local control of hospitals to the communities they're supposed to serve would be a great first step in solving the problems of the health care system, including shortages of qualified staff.

Large models like the health authority generally do not work. Be it busniess, government etc they just don't work.
For some reason somebody thought that big centralized hospitals were a good idea becasue that is how factories do it. People are not products off a factory floor. Then again, what do you do when people keep electing these same people in?
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Re: Another area in IH with Doctor shortage

Postby canuck500 » Nov 19th, 2012, 12:50 pm

Actually centralisation makes sense from a medical model as well, the more patients seen the more proficient you become. Amstrong & Enderby were never equipped to deal with anything signifigant, I remember hearing horror stories about people having to wait hours there because the staff could never get hold of the doctor on call for emergency.

The biggest problem with the health authortiies is that they created top heavy administrative empires. BTW I believe the health authorities were created under the NDP. The concept would have worked if they had put caps on how big the administration became, improved servces in the bigger hospitals and improved the ambulance service.
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Re: Another area in IH with Doctor shortage

Postby Alvis » Nov 19th, 2012, 1:04 pm

canuck500 wrote:Actually centralisation makes sense from a medical model as well, the more patients seen the more proficient you become. Amstrong & Enderby were never equipped to deal with anything signifigant, I remember hearing horror stories about people having to wait hours there because the staff could never get hold of the doctor on call for emergency.

The biggest problem with the health authortiies is that they created top heavy administrative empires. BTW I believe the health authorities were created under the NDP. The concept would have worked if they had put caps on how big the administration became, improved servces in the bigger hospitals and improved the ambulance service.

Centralization DOES NOT work as a health care dmodel. have not been paying attention tot he last 11 year in BC?
The model would work if people had access to care 1) in a timely manner and 2) close proximety to where they live. Are you unaware of the "Golden Hour" with regards to heart attacks and strokes, to name a few?
As pointed by a good friend who worked as a nurse in the North Okanagan their quickest response time with an ambulance was 20 minutes but usually closer to 45 minutes. An approx 20 minute on scene assessment and stabilization, and then if in Enderby, a car ride to either Salmon Arm or Vernon. Vernon could be up to 45 minutes in ideal conditions, longer with summer traffic or winter, and Salmon Arm, if space was available, 20 minute to half and hour.
"BTW I believe the health authorities were created under the NDP."
Your "belief" is wrong. Health authorities created under the BC Liberals in 2001.
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Re: Another area in IH with Doctor shortage

Postby canuck500 » Nov 19th, 2012, 8:20 pm

I meant from treatment side of things, there has to be a certain volume to maintain proficency as far as any specialty services go, I mean you don't see every hospital offering heart surgery or neurosurgery.
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Re: Another area in IH with Doctor shortage

Postby Alvis » Nov 19th, 2012, 9:30 pm

canuck500 wrote:I meant from treatment side of things, there has to be a certain volume to maintain proficency as far as any specialty services go, I mean you don't see every hospital offering heart surgery or neurosurgery.

No that is actually wrong. A hospital treats people,and unlike a factory cranking things out, large central hospitals tend to concentrate professionals and in the grand scheme of things, reduce their numbers. See: Enderby Doctor crisis.
For every hospital there are not only Dr.s and nurses, but physio, respiratoty techs, X ray techs, pharmacists etc etc. With increased numbers of specialists, wiat times actually go down. You are correct, small hospitals do not do major surgery like open heart BUT do we really need to tie up large centres with small issues, like broken bones, minor surgery etc? I'd rather spend the money wisely and have enough people to handle all cases. As we;ve seen since 2001, the centralized hospital idea has been a major failure in BC. Ask anybody who lives in a small center who've had their small rural hosptial closed down.
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Re: Another area in IH with Doctor shortage

Postby gardengirl » Nov 19th, 2012, 9:32 pm

canuck500 wrote:I meant from treatment side of things, there has to be a certain volume to maintain proficency as far as any specialty services go, I mean you don't see every hospital offering heart surgery or neurosurgery.


Volume? Really? Ever spend much time in emerg? Think of all the extra people from outlying areas who end up in Vernon, Salmon Arm, Kelowna and Penticton hospitals who could have been in Enderby, Armstrong or Summerland.
All these less serious emergencies pile up in emerg, then those who need to be admitted end up in hallways instead of rooms.

The smaller hospitals never offered cardiac surgery or neurosurgery to begin with. However, they did appendectomies, obstetrics, and other surgical procedures. Having the smaller hospitals looking after the basics allowed the larger centres to specialize on the more complicated procedures. Because beds are being freed up in those larger centres, the wait lists would be shorter and patients requiring those specialty services would be better served.
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Re: Another area in IH with Doctor shortage

Postby canuck500 » Nov 19th, 2012, 9:41 pm

I was talking about the specialty stuff for proficency. The scope of what they can do in small towns like Salmon Arm is very small, I used to live there. General Practiciioner Anethesiologists, as opposed to Vernon where you have board certified Anethesiologists. Even the specialists that visit there can only do the most basic of procedures.
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Re: Another area in IH with Doctor shortage

Postby motorhomebabe » Nov 19th, 2012, 9:44 pm

I remember the hospital in Merritt was State of the art , For its size. the local ranchers and logging companies made sure of that.A family member passed away there , another one gave birth, Now you have to go Kamloops to do either. That building is still there , just a nursing station last I heard. Sad!
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Re: Another area in IH with Doctor shortage

Postby gardengirl » Nov 19th, 2012, 9:58 pm

canuck500 wrote:I was talking about the specialty stuff for proficency. The scope of what they can do in small towns like Salmon Arm is very small, I used to live there. General Practiciioner Anethesiologists, as opposed to Vernon where you have board certified Anethesiologists. Even the specialists that visit there can only do the most basic of procedures.


That's the point. The basic procedures can be done in the smaller centres. Those procedures would be done on a regular basis, thus allowing the practitioners to maintain a proficiency. More complicated procedures would take place at the larger centres and wait lists would be smaller. Patients would not have to wait, would not have to travel and would have access to follow up.
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Re: Another area in IH with Doctor shortage

Postby Alvis » Nov 19th, 2012, 11:12 pm

gardengirl wrote:
canuck500 wrote:I was talking about the specialty stuff for proficency. The scope of what they can do in small towns like Salmon Arm is very small, I used to live there. General Practiciioner Anethesiologists, as opposed to Vernon where you have board certified Anethesiologists. Even the specialists that visit there can only do the most basic of procedures.


That's the point. The basic procedures can be done in the smaller centres. Those procedures would be done on a regular basis, thus allowing the practitioners to maintain a proficiency. More complicated procedures would take place at the larger centres and wait lists would be smaller. Patients would not have to wait, would not have to travel and would have access to follow up.

100% correct! If you want "volume" you need traind professionals to deliver. Close a hospital, put a few more professionals out of work, how you going to get your "volume".

I have friends who work in healthcare, some in rural areas, some in urban areas and the stories they tell are unreal. Shuttling patients between hospitals for procedures via ambulance, long wait times for minor treatments, lack of resources in both big and small centers the list goes on and on. Time to quit treating healthcare like a busniess and treat it like it is: a SERVICE for PEOPLE.
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