Castanet

keith1612 wrote:the general public in vernon seem very satisfied as to the lakes use and to how its effecting the birds,
the only people that seem upset are a few kayakers and anti boaters who want the lake turned into their own little piece of paradise.
i live 5 minutes from the lake and in the course of my work day can drive past it 10-20 times a day, i have never seen any

Can you provide the evidence that the general public feels this way, or is this just a statement you are assuming? As for being upset, I am not upset at all, I am trying to make common sense prevail. Why would you wake-board at a lake with a giant Ducks Unlimited Canada sign? Or wake-board on a lake where there are literal floating signs on the lake warning about the bird nesting grounds? Are you saying just ignore all of these signs and that they are hogwash, or maybe you are saying they don't exist and that the signs are a theory?? Who would of thought you can wake board on Swan Lake? Now stop and think for a moment, the primary issue here is wake boarders on Swan Lake which were out there this summer quite a bit. You actually would know that if you really drove by the 15-20 times day like you claim, or if you actually read this forum. How can you restrict just wake boarding boats? You can't that I am aware of. So targeting 9.9hp and above seems to be the only solution to this problem. This 9.9hp restriction is also suggested from Ducks Unlimited Canada. So are you saying they don't know what they are talking about? And that all members of Ducks Unlimited are kayakers and anti boaters? I am not an anti-boater at all. I am simply stating, take the big power boats to the bigger lakes that can accommodate the bigger waves, its very easy. It takes 10 minutes to go drive to either of the other lakes and unload over there.

all i am saying is there has never been a known problem before on swan lake or now as far as i and others have seen.
i dont see a reason to request ruining others enjoyment untill there is a problem.
yes there is floating signs etc but there also has been no reports of people abusing the lakes with power boats.
enviroment canada has no issues with the lake being used by boaters, the city of vernon has no issue with it, the only one with a issue appears to be you.
good luck with getting motors banned, i have only used the lake once with my larger boat and dont care for the shallow launch.
do i believe there is a problem on the lake no, but its usually the complainers that get their way in the end.
you post in this thread to use the other lakes then go to the other thread and post to stop marina's on the other lakes.
you obviously are against power boats in general and are trying to hide that fact.
its not hard to see.

keith1612 wrote:all i am saying is there has never been a known problem before on swan lake or now as far as i and others have seen.
i dont see a reason to request ruining others enjoyment untill there is a problem.
yes there is floating signs etc but there also has been no reports of people abusing the lakes with power boats.
enviroment canada has no issues with the lake being used by boaters, the city of vernon has no issue with it, the only one with a issue appears to be you.
good luck with getting motors banned, i have only used the lake once with my larger boat and dont care for the shallow launch.
do i believe there is a problem on the lake no, but its usually the complainers that get their way in the end.
you post in this thread to use the other lakes then go to the other thread and post to stop marina's on the other lakes.
you obviously are against power boats in general and are trying to hide that fact.
its not hard to see.

As for a problem on Swan Lake you have never seen it so therefore the problem does not exist? Because people don't report is there is no problem? I am adding light to a very sensitive subject it seems. As for the City of Vernon having no issues, do you have proof of this? What about between 2000 and 2001. When Okanagan-Shuswap LRMP supported full designation of Swan Lake as a Wildlife Management area? Are you also suggesting these people have no issue with the boats? Or maybe that is also a theory?

Or in 2005 125 acres on the South Side of Swan Lake were purchased to create a nature reserve. Guess who purchased the land? The City of Vernon, NONC, and Bishop Wild Bird Trust? Do do you want to take back your erroneous statement that the City has no issues? Do you still think I am the only one in all of Vernon that thinks power boats on Swan Lake make no sense?

As for me trying to stop marina's. I never said that either, I just said I don't support a public Marina funded by tax dollars. I support private Marina's and I simply am trying to say to you, if you want to be a Marina member, pay the private Marina moorage fees.

Again, you are steering the topic away from the primary issue. This forum is about Swan Lake and the issues that I brought at hand. If you want to discuss the Marina, please save it for that forum. Stop going off topic.

References to dates:
http://www.nonc.ca/styled-4/index.html

again i was not off topic, i was reponding to your post to use other lakes thats it.
you cant post any facts saying that anything is being destroyed by careless boaters on swan lake because there isnt any.
just because the city purchased land does not mean they think there is a problem with its designated use.
as for "Okanagan-Shuswap LRMP supported full designation of Swan Lake as a Wildlife Management area" obviously that failed for a reason, there is no real need.
leave the lake as it is for all users not just the special few who think it should only be theirs.

keith1612 wrote:again i was not off topic, i was reponding to your post to use other lakes thats it.
you cant post any facts saying that anything is being destroyed by careless boaters on swan lake because there isnt any.
just because the city purchased land does not mean they think there is a problem with its designated use.
as for "Okanagan-Shuswap LRMP supported full designation of Swan Lake as a Wildlife Management area" obviously that failed for a reason, there is no real need.
leave the lake as it is for all users not just the special few who think it should only be theirs.

Actually there was a study done in 1999 by Richard Canning specifically on the Western Grebe population for Swan Lake. The study suggests ban all boating on Swan Lake. So maybe because the study says this, to you that is reasonable because that is what the study suggests. There has been studies done on the lake, so again, please don't make assumptions that you can not back up.

The Okanagan-Shuswap LRMP has not been the only government organization to support Swan Lake as a Wildlife Management area, this is just one organization I brought up. So you are saying all the local organizations, biologists, government entities are incorrect and wrong? Maybe these are all theories to you and I am the only one in Vernon??

It seems to me you never once brought up the issue or fact of the 6000 migratory birds that flock to the lake during peak migratory season? Perhaps in your ideal world we should relocate the birds so that the wake-boarding can go on? You said yourself you don't like to launch because of the shallowness of Swan Lake. Do you know how waves are formed? Or what making the water murky does to the environment?

no i dont believe in relocating wildlife, i believe we generally can properly survive togeather.
you by your own posts admit you would prefer to see speedboats driven right out of vernon.
you are making false and missleading statements saying there is safety issues and out of control alcohol abuse etc.
i see no reason or proof that the lake or the wildlife is in any danger of any magnitude.
any waters that any boats beit ski boats or kayaks use can and will effect wildlife.
thats a part of life.
i see minimal problems on swan/kal/ok lakes etc.
you should start by having the homes removed from the side of swan lake, perhaps their pets (dogs etc) are bothering the ducks also.
sorry you can post all the ducks unlimited stuff you want, i can see for myself that the wildlife is in no danger and this is just a attempt to rid pesky boats you dont like.

keith1612 wrote:no i dont believe in relocating wildlife, i believe we generally can properly survive togeather.
you by your own posts admit you would prefer to see speedboats driven right out of vernon.
you are making false and missleading statements saying there is safety issues and out of control alcohol abuse etc.
i see no reason or proof that the lake or the wildlife is in any danger of any magnitude.
any waters that any boats beit ski boats or kayaks use can and will effect wildlife.
thats a part of life.
i see minimal problems on swan/kal/ok lakes etc.
you should start by having the homes removed from the side of swan lake, perhaps their pets (dogs etc) are bothering the ducks also.
sorry you can post all the ducks unlimited stuff you want, i can see for myself that the wildlife is in no danger and this is just a attempt to rid pesky boats you dont like.

In my opinion, I do believe that there are safety issues on the lake that I have seen myself firsthand, and I have no reason to lie or mislead. In my opinion, some of those boats do come pretty close to the smaller boats. As for misleading statements, not once have I made up facts like yourself, and everything that is fact based I have provided a reference.

The safety issue yes, that is my opinion and that is what I believe. Thankfully we live in a free society with free speech. Just like you have an opinion. My opinion is Swan Lake has safety problems. Yes it is 3 miles long and a kilometer wide. But how much of Swan Lake can actually be used for power boating purposes? Most of it is too shallow for any normal boat, so it shrinks the lake well over half. I have also personally witnessed the alcohol, clearly from your other posts drinking on the water is something you are in full support of. So further discussion on this, I might as well talk to a wall as I would get about the same response.

There is plenty of proof to remove the boats from Swan Lake, the problem is you don't see any reason in your opinion and will not take the time to recognize that there are professional organizations that would completely disagree with your statements, and there has been professional funded studies on the effects of boating in Swan Lake. So please do not put me into a one man category because it is simply not the truth, and do not make up fairy tales.

As for me stating the boats should all go to Kelowna. I was referring to the boat owners that don't want to pay private moo rage fees and expect the taxpayers to foot the bill for them. This is also off topic, so we really should not discuss this at all in this forum or our posts will be deleted.

Again you had said another contradictory statement "i see no reason or proof that the lake or the wildlife is in any danger of any magnitude.
any waters that any boats beit ski boats or kayaks use can and will effect wildlife.
thats a part of life. i see minimal problems on swan/kal/ok lakes etc."

One side you are saying wildlife is not in any danger. Your other statement is, that's part of life and there are minimal problems. Which is it? Is it, that's part of life deal with it, or is it, there is no danger to wildlife. And for the record that is your opinion.

"you should start by having the homes removed from the side of swan lake, perhaps their pets (dogs etc) are bothering the ducks also.
sorry you can post all the ducks unlimited stuff you want, i can see for myself that the wildlife is in no danger and this is just a attempt to rid pesky boats you dont like."

As for having the homes removed on the side of Swan Lake and remove their pets? What are you going on about? Last I checked I did not see the Dorothy and Toto on Highway 97.

Then you say, I see for myself wildlife is in no danger, yet 5 sentences before that you said "that is part of life. and there is minimal problems" You are all over the map here, please make up your mind and stick with one or the other, and again please stay on topic as you are running close to getting this forum shut down for further input.

i have stayed fully on topic even though you feel i dont.
the straight fact is either this is about protecting the wildlife or getting rid of noisy boats.
as the expert advised the way to protect the wildlife is to remove all boats from swan lake (motor size is not a factor).
if the goal is to protect wildlife then the fight should be to ban skiboats,fishing boats, kayaks etc.
the point to a forum is to start a thread and allow opinions, all i have posted is my true opinion on the matter.
you cant just decide to 1/2 protect a bird habitat can you?

keith1612 wrote:i have stayed fully on topic even though you feel i dont.
the straight fact is either this is about protecting the wildlife or getting rid of noisy boats.
as the expert advised the way to protect the wildlife is to remove all boats from swan lake (motor size is not a factor).
if the goal is to protect wildlife then the fight should be to ban skiboats,fishing boats, kayaks etc.
the point to a forum is to start a thread and allow opinions, all i have posted is my true opinion on the matter.
you cant just decide to 1/2 protect a bird habitat can you?

Thank you for taking a reasonable approach now and toning down the rhetoric. One point I have to make, its not about the noise. My original plan before I started the forum topic and letters to the editor was to ban all boats including kayaks. However after lots of discussion with various groups, my wife, friends, I was then convinced after much debate that a more reasonable approach would be to be ban boats above 9.9hp. Here is where the reasoning comes from, you be the judge.

As for the expert that claims ban all boats, I agree that is totally unreasonable, however I found more reasonable terms for a boat ban within another study.

The reason to pick on boats above 9.9hp is they tend to create the larger wakes which do create more damage to the shoreline and to the habitat on the ground of the lake, which has an effect on everything within the environment there. There was a study done that any wave above 25cm causes 5 times more damage than a wave that is 12.5cm. Any wave above 62.5cm are 30 times more destructive than a normally produced wave.

Once ski-boats get to their planing motion they do tend to produce waves 25cm and above which is 5 times more destructive to the shoreline than the wave a kayak or rower would produce. The issue that I see at hand is the wake-boards are causing the most damage in the lake as their waves are above 62.5cm. If you do not believe these statements I have provided a reference to backup my statement. (see government sanctioned reference # 1 below )

If you do have a better proposal then I on this, then please do tell us about it instead of slamming everything and contradicting everything that I say. Instead of chronic complaining about my solution, come up with a better solution than I have other then doing nothing, and saying leave it the way it is and let people enjoy the lake.

You tell me what is the price the environment has to pay for the sake of a few people enjoying boating on Swan Lake. When a majority of people come to the Okanagan, they don't come to go boating at a marsh. They come to go boating at Okanagan and Kalamalka Lake. Having certain boating restrictions on Swan Lake is not in my opinion going to have an adverse affect at all on the tourism industry and will only affect a few select groups.

Clearly in my view there is a problem if the Western Grebe is already gone from the area and a study has proven it is from the boats. What birds are next on the list is my next question? When do we decide enough is enough? I am not claiming to be a bird biologist, or any type of biologist, any type of wildlife expert. I am a normal citizen who is genuinely concerned for two issues at hand. Number one, definitely the environment. And number two as you pointed out by the letter in the paper, safety for the smaller vessels in my opinion is a problem and I already explained my reasoning in above responses.

I do not feel that you can disagree that Swan Lake is both shallow, narrow, and it definitely makes the lake smaller for where the larger boats can go. Why anyone with their $50,000 wake-board boats would want to boat there is beyond me. To me doing something is always better then nothing, as doing nothing could prove to be worse.

References:
http://www.marinfo.gc.ca/Doc/Erosion/Er ... ges_EN.pdf

sorry i dont agree with partial fake concern for the enviroment and wildlife you are putting out on the terms as long as it only effects others.
i just drove by swan lake 3 minutes ago and saw to larger HP boats fishing slowly and no boat trailers in the boat launch.
this leads me to believe they are probably home owners on the lake,
so you feel because you harm the wildlife a little less you should have special rights over them?
thats hogwash.
from what i see you started this thread to have larger boats banned so you can kayak in peace.
there has been no RCMP reports of abuse, no headlines in the news of problems and no complaints from homeowners living on the lake.
so again why ban larger boats to allow you to kayak around the nesting grounds causing damage?
posting facts about waves from larger boats while omitting the probable damage you are causing is again missleading and false.
everyone pays taxes here and has the same rights unless there is solid proof for otherwise and enviroment canada has chosen to feel its in everyone's rights to enjoy the lake.
bird lovers and boating enthusiasts.
if this comes to a choice to make by enviroment canada myself and many others will lobby to keep things as they are or impliment a full ban on the lake for wildlife protection.
i dont believe in doing things just so a few priviliged think they can own their own lake.

keith1612 wrote:sorry i dont agree with partial fake concern for the enviroment and wildlife you are putting out on the terms as long as it only effects others.
i just drove by swan lake 3 minutes ago and saw to larger HP boats fishing slowly and no boat trailers in the boat launch.
this leads me to believe they are probably home owners on the lake,
so you feel because you harm the wildlife a little less you should have special rights over them?
thats hogwash.
from what i see you started this thread to have larger boats banned so you can kayak in peace.
there has been no RCMP reports of abuse, no headlines in the news of problems and no complaints from homeowners living on the lake.
so again why ban larger boats to allow you to kayak around the nesting grounds causing damage?
posting facts about waves from larger boats while omitting the probable damage you are causing is again missleading and false.
everyone pays taxes here and has the same rights unless there is solid proof for otherwise and enviroment canada has chosen to feel its in everyone's rights to enjoy the lake.
bird lovers and boating enthusiasts.
if this comes to a choice to make by enviroment canada myself and many others will lobby to keep things as they are or impliment a full ban on the lake for wildlife protection.
i dont believe in doing things just so a few priviliged think they can own their own lake.

This is nothing to do with Environment Canada. The decision actually lies with Transport Canada and can only be submitted by City of Vernon, NORD, or the Province of BC. Please do your research before posting false statements to the readers. As for banning all boats, so be it. I have no issues at all with that, but the likelihood of that happening is very marginal and probably won't happen.

Again talking to a wall will get me the same results. I can see that there is not any sort of logical thinking with you. My debate with you is finished. You do not answer any of my questions, you just keep going back to the same thing over and over and keep attempting to derail this thread. Your false accusations about my beliefs and what I have said about my concerns and that they are fake I find extremely offensive and a personal attack. Usually when people start with personal attacks they have no basis for their claims and that is all they can attack is the person. You have so far come up with no arguments on anything I say except everything is fake, and you are even trying to have contradictions against scientific studies done by the government of Canada and calling them theories and false?

It is very clear to me that you need to work on your listening skills, and your logical reasoning of thinking. That being said, your choices in words and your baseless arguments have given me no choice but to stop my debate with you due to your personal attacking and your baseless arguments about absolutely nothing. Your personal attacking is doing nothing except for attempting to derail the entire thread. Way to go Champ.

i agree there is no logical thinking here, and i will end it with you.
you have posted nothing to backup the alcohol or abusive boat problems you have brought up.
you have posted nothing to back up the threats of a impending serious accident on the lake,
you have ignored the fact that smaller boats cause damage also and just because i feel the lake should be available to all users you start saying im off topic and causing problems,
i have no use for people who just look at a cause if it suits their personal gains.
i see no problems on the lake as nobody i know do either.
growing up here for 40 years i think i would hear more people worried but no its a very small few who see a problem.
im simply posting the obvious facts about the lake.
its crazy how people get these ideas that wildlife is suddenly in danger,the lake has been used by recreational boaters for many many years and the wildlife around the lake are thriving.
there is no sudden bird shortage or increased fatality rate.
i would love to see some posts by people with non hidden agenda's in this showing there is a wildlife habitat issue.
the areas for the habitat are marked and user's have been respecting that, just like on many lakes.

Way to go Vernongeek. Thank god for poeople like you...intelligent, articulate and in pursuit of something important...

I have seen some of these wakeboarders in action as a passer by and was impressed with the level of thier skill. Since reading this thread i made a few calls to some of the local shops to determine whom these riders are.

As it turns out they are both local and visitors training for the the various events both nationaly and internationally. A few weeks ago in August when this seems to get controversial they were training for the Canadian Nationals held in Quebec the last week of August. The reason they favor Swan Lake is due to calm water that is not available at Kal , Okanagan or Wood and Duck is apparently a private lake. By judging the manovers they are performing consistent water should be important. This also doesn't seem to be a daily or regular occurence.

I feel its important to note that having some of the best wakeboarders in the world here is a great benefit to the community and that we should be proud and supportive . These kids age ranges from 13 to 25 and the fact that they are helping to train one another is encouraging.

I think its a great story and we should support and encourage the local talents to be the best they can be. The birds will always get along as they have for the last many many years with power boats on the lake.

I may get a earful but its my personal opinion.

Boxerpeeps wrote:I have seen some of these wakeboarders in action as a passer by and was impressed with the level of thier skill. Since reading this thread i made a few calls to some of the local shops to determine whom these riders are.

As it turns out they are both local and visitors training for the the various events both nationaly and internationally. A few weeks ago in August when this seems to get controversial they were training for the Canadian Nationals held in Quebec the last week of August. The reason they favor Swan Lake is due to calm water that is not available at Kal , Okanagan or Wood and Duck is apparently a private lake. By judging the manovers they are performing consistent water should be important. This also doesn't seem to be a daily or regular occurence.

I feel its important to note that having some of the best wakeboarders in the world here is a great benefit to the community and that we should be proud and supportive . These kids age ranges from 13 to 25 and the fact that they are helping to train one another is encouraging.

I think its a great story and we should support and encourage the local talents to be the best they can be. The birds will always get along as they have for the last many many years with power boats on the lake.

I may get a earful but its my personal opinion.

great post, good to see some people like to think of others before just themselves.
be a shame to see athletes out trying to do something good banned from using a area just because the noise bothers some others.
the only time i see the lake used for skiing is generally very early mornings while the lake is calm as glass.
i have friends that live on pleasent valley road right above the lake and they like to watch the expert skiers out there preforming well.
as a city that appears to pride itself in its athletic fields etc it would be a shame to see it start to restrict use for no real useful purpose.