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Swan Lake Wakeboarding

North Okanagan topics including Vernon, Coldstream, Lumby, Armstrong, Enderby and Spallumcheen.

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Re: Swan Lake Wakeboarding

Postby vernongeek » Sep 9th, 2012, 8:50 pm

Drinkmoremilk wrote:Way to go Vernongeek. Thank god for poeople like you...intelligent, articulate and in pursuit of something important...


Thank you. I am trying to stick to the facts, while some people stick to their own opinions and deny the facts even exist. All for the simplistic enjoyment of a few. At the same time having complete disregard to the environment and its surroundings. Vernon purchased 125 acres of land on the South Side of Swan lake to protect the birds not to protect the boats. It makes absolutely no sense to me to allow wake-boarding or any activity that causes large wakes on this lake as this will create a negative effect on the Conservatory and the ecosystem around it. Again I reiterate, 6000 birds in one day migrate to this lake during peak season, why is that so hard to comprehend?

It is also true the lake is nearly 5 km long and 1 km wide. However one question to ask yourself, how much of Swan Lake is actually usable for the larger boats?

You be the judge:
http://www.anglersatlas.com/lakes/1825/
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Re: Swan Lake Wakeboarding

Postby keith1612 » Sep 10th, 2012, 7:21 am

It is also true the lake is nearly 5 km long and 1 km wide. However one question to ask yourself, how much of Swan Lake is actually usable for the larger boats?

You be the judge:
http://www.anglersatlas.com/lakes/1825/[/quote]

great post, you show that at 5 klm long 1 klm wide with 15-30 ft depths its more than adequate for larger boats and skiers.
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Re: Swan Lake Wakeboarding

Postby vernongeek » Sep 10th, 2012, 8:47 am

keith1612 wrote:great post, you show that at 5 klm long 1 klm wide with 15-30 ft depths its more than adequate for larger boats and skiers.


You have stated yourself in previous posts, you stopped personally going to the lake because of the shallowness of the launching of your boat. The reeds on the sides of the lake from the shoreline go out how many feet? How shallow is the lake say from shore to 200 feet out? Where are the signs physically located on the lake?

Again, is this a bird migratory lake? Are there literal floating signs on the lake? Is there a Ducks Unlimited Billboard Sign at the South End of the lake? Is there a 125 acre conservatory on the South end of the lake? Did the Western Grebe get wipe out from humans? Has there been scientific studies done on this lake to prove that humans are having a negative effect on the lake? The answer to these questions is yes. So logic would ask, why would you wake board with your $50,000 boat in such a sensitive habitat for the sake of a few millionaires to enjoy watching the wake boarders from their million dollar mansions that overlook Swan Lake?
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Re: Swan Lake Wakeboarding

Postby keith1612 » Sep 10th, 2012, 11:27 am

vernongeek wrote:
keith1612 wrote:great post, you show that at 5 klm long 1 klm wide with 15-30 ft depths its more than adequate for larger boats and skiers.


You have stated yourself in previous posts, you stopped personally going to the lake because of the shallowness of the launching of your boat. The reeds on the sides of the lake from the shoreline go out how many feet? How shallow is the lake say from shore to 200 feet out? Where are the signs physically located on the lake?

Again, is this a bird migratory lake? Are there literal floating signs on the lake? Is there a Ducks Unlimited Billboard Sign at the South End of the lake? Is there a 125 acre conservatory on the South end of the lake? Did the Western Grebe get wipe out from humans? Has there been scientific studies done on this lake to prove that humans are having a negative effect on the lake? The answer to these questions is yes. So logic would ask, why would you wake board with your $50,000 boat in such a sensitive habitat for the sake of a few millionaires to enjoy watching the wake boarders from their million dollar mansions that overlook Swan Lake?


the only shallow part of the lake that bothered me is the boat launch itself, i prefer to have a dock to get my dogs and gear into the boat.
perhaps we should lobby for a proper dock at the launch.
as for ducks unlimited they mean very little to me and i dont generally go to the south end of the lake even snowmobiling.
the 125 acre conservatory on the south end of the lake has no bearing on the lake.
again there are rules in place for boaters and if you see them breaking the rules you can call the RCMP.
you seem to take issue with Alberta residents using the lake and also loud music, i personally wasnt aware ducks were bothered by ZZ top being played in a boat.
why do you feel someone has less rights than you because you use a kayak and they use a 50k boat?
its been proven that both cause damage so what makes you feel your damage is within the acceptable allowable limits?
im sure the birds would prefer all be removed.
in life humans unfortunatly displace wildlife for our own gains, be it bears in towns or ducks on our lakes.
there is no shortage of small lakes in the okanagan (i spend most my weekends at fishing lakes not the bigger lakes) and the wildlife has and will adapt.
the basic solid facts are the government and conservation have rightfully decided the boaters are not causing the degree of damage you are posting.
yes you can always find tree hugging fanatics that have written reports trying to change everything to suit their needs but that doesnt make them fully correct.
as a person who lives 5 minutes from the boat launch i drive by there regularly and can assure you there are very few tourists using swan lake, its almost all locals.
there is also very few ski boats, again the very odd local.
i will meet you at the launch any weekend you like and lets count the ski boats and the red plates.
hell i will bring my boat and we can go see if we can find all the reckless abusers out there.
bet we have a very boring day.
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Re: Swan Lake Wakeboarding

Postby vernongeek » Sep 10th, 2012, 11:50 am

keith1612 wrote:the only shallow part of the lake that bothered me is the boat launch itself, i prefer to have a dock to get my dogs and gear into the boat.
perhaps we should lobby for a proper dock at the launch.
as for ducks unlimited they mean very little to me and i dont generally go to the south end of the lake even snowmobiling.
the 125 acre conservatory on the south end of the lake has no bearing on the lake.
again there are rules in place for boaters and if you see them breaking the rules you can call the RCMP.
you seem to take issue with Alberta residents using the lake and also loud music, i personally wasnt aware ducks were bothered by ZZ top being played in a boat.
why do you feel someone has less rights than you because you use a kayak and they use a 50k boat?
its been proven that both cause damage so what makes you feel your damage is within the acceptable allowable limits?
im sure the birds would prefer all be removed.
in life humans unfortunatly displace wildlife for our own gains, be it bears in towns or ducks on our lakes.
there is no shortage of small lakes in the okanagan (i spend most my weekends at fishing lakes not the bigger lakes) and the wildlife has and will adapt.
the basic solid facts are the government and conservation have rightfully decided the boaters are not causing the degree of damage you are posting.
yes you can always find tree hugging fanatics that have written reports trying to change everything to suit their needs but that doesnt make them fully correct.
as a person who lives 5 minutes from the boat launch i drive by there regularly and can assure you there are very few tourists using swan lake, its almost all locals.
there is also very few ski boats, again the very odd local.
i will meet you at the launch any weekend you like and lets count the ski boats and the red plates.
hell i will bring my boat and we can go see if we can find all the reckless abusers out there.
bet we have a very boring day.


As for your solid facts, please post your solid fact references before saying that you have solid facts.

What perplexes me is according to you, the government is a tree hugging fanatic?

I never once stated there are lots of wake-board boats. In case you never read my posts, I said mainly the long weekends. My intention was to point out specifically the wake-board boats this summer and ask the question of why are they allowed in the first place? Never once did I say there is a huge influx of boats there, and this time of year yes it would be very boring. But it does not rule out the fact the damage they cause is 30 times greater than that of a kayak wave, and 6 times more then a normal ski boat at planing speed. Again here is my reference from a government source if you don't believe it. (see below)

As for your sentence, "im sure the birds would prefer all be removed.", sometimes in life we all have to make compromises. I would have a heck of lot more people stomping their feet if I attempted a movement to ban all boats, maybe this is something you would be willing to do though as you mentioned in your other posts? I personally would be quite happy if they made an all boat restriction for Swan Lake. Lets get real for a second, Kalamalka and Okanagan Lake are a mere 10 minutes away. Why is it so unreasonable to launch your wakeboard boat at those lakes?

Reference:
http://www.marinfo.gc.ca/Doc/Erosion/Er ... ges_EN.pdf

Excerpt from above source:

The magnitude of the waves generated by
a boat depends on different factors, particularly the boat’s speed, its size, passenger/cargo
loading, the shape of its hull, distance from shore and water depth. Wave height is one of
the most important factors in shoreline erosion. Observations made by the Minnesota
Department of Natural Resources have shown that a wave that is 12.5 cm high (the height
of a compact disk case) does not cause significant shoreline damage. Waves of this height
are created by boats operating at speeds generally under 10 km/h—a speed that is
considered reasonable when operating close to sensitive shores. A wave that is 25 cm
high is five times more destructive than a 12.5-cm wave; 62.5-cm high waves are 30
times more destructive. For example, a small motorboat produces a wave that is 25-cm
high when at planing speed, whereas cruising yachts and other craft that do not plane can
generate waves that can easily reach heights of 62.5 cm and more."
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Re: Swan Lake Wakeboarding

Postby keith1612 » Sep 10th, 2012, 12:04 pm

well we will never obviously agree on this as you keep going back to wave references.
the true issue is very few feel there is a problem on swan lake myself included.
it is your right to try and get boats banned and its my right to oppose it and disagree with the posted facts.
there is nothing local and recent to show the wildlife are under any major risk.
i cant see you getting a wake board specific ban but i sure am interested to see.
if the government decides the wildlife is in peril i will honor the law and stay off the lake.
untill then i prefer it available should i like.
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Re: Swan Lake Wakeboarding

Postby vernongeek » Sep 10th, 2012, 12:50 pm

keith1612 wrote:well we will never obviously agree on this as you keep going back to wave references.
the true issue is very few feel there is a problem on swan lake myself included.
it is your right to try and get boats banned and its my right to oppose it and disagree with the posted facts.
there is nothing local and recent to show the wildlife are under any major risk.
i cant see you getting a wake board specific ban but i sure am interested to see.
if the government decides the wildlife is in peril i will honor the law and stay off the lake.
untill then i prefer it available should i like.


Yes you are very correct, it is your right to dispute facts. It is also the right for some people to dispute that the Earth is not round even though plenty of evidence to prove them otherwise. It is well within your right to dispute, however in my view, a better debate would be if you had actual facts to backup your claims and to dispute the facts I have provided rather than solely basing your disputes on opinion alone.

I am looking forward to you posting your hard facts that you have to backup your claims that boats have no adverse effect on wildlife and the habitat around it? As for your other statement, "as for ducks unlimited they mean very little to me and i dont generally go to the south end of the lake even snowmobiling."
Why does Ducks Unlimited mean very little to you? Why do you avoid the South end of the Lake? Perhaps you are finally admitting that fact Swan Lake is a sensitive habitat? After all, not to take your line but.... How you can half protect something?

What is amusing to me is everyone I talk to in person within Vernon was already under the impression power boats were banned from Swan Lake. As for your view on, very few that feel there is a problem, really? Maybe that is your impression, but I have the opposite impression.

As for local risks, I am confused what you mean about no evidence to show there is wildlife at risk, I think that is untrue. I already posted the study several times about the Western Grebe that was done specifically for Swan Lake in Vernon. How many times do I have to post one article?

As for you honoring the law, come on tell the full story. In your Enderby post, your comment about it's ok to have a beer while on a 5 hour float down the river, even though it is illegal. So how can you say you would honor the law?
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Re: Swan Lake Wakeboarding

Postby danmartin » Sep 10th, 2012, 1:51 pm

[quote="keith1612"]well we will never obviously agree on this as you keep going back to wave references.
the true issue is very few feel there is a problem on swan lake myself included.
it is your right to try and get boats banned and its my right to oppose it and disagree with the posted facts.
there is nothing local and recent to show the wildlife are under any major risk.
i cant see you getting a wake board specific ban but i sure am interested to see.
if the government decides the wildlife is in peril i will honor the law and stay off the lake.
untill then i prefer it available should i like.[/quote

I've been following this topic and can't believe some of the misinfomation that some are trying to present as fact. I have spoken to numerous people about this issue just to see their point of view and as of yet haven't had one person tell me that large boats and wake boarders etc. should be on such a small lake especially with the bird nesting issues!!! Also comparing the harm done by kayakers, canoes, rowers etc. to that done by large power boats with their wake, pollution, noise, seems silly and if large boats are banned then the other must be also !? If people while in their canoes etc.were in disturbing nests then of course that would need to be stopped but someone makes very little noise or wake in such boats and as such disturb nature very little.
Last edited by danmartin on Sep 10th, 2012, 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Swan Lake Wakeboarding

Postby vernongeek » Sep 10th, 2012, 2:06 pm

danmartin wrote:I've been following this topic and can't believe some of the miss information that some are trying to present as fact.


:nutzoid:
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Re: Swan Lake Wakeboarding

Postby keith1612 » Sep 10th, 2012, 2:11 pm

I've been following this topic and can't believe some of the misinfomation that some are trying to present as fact. I have spoken to numerous people about this issue just to see their point of view and as of yet haven't had one person tell me that large boats and wake boarders etc. should be on such a small lake especially with the bird nesting issues!!! Also comparing the harm done by kayakers, canoes, rowers etc. to that done by large power boats with their wake, pollution, noise, seems silly and if large boats are banned then the other must be also !? If people while in their canoes etc.were in disturbing nests then of course that would need to be stopped but someone makes very little noise or wake in such boats and as such disturb nature very little.[/quote]

if you read back vernongeek posted a expert who did say all boats large and small damage nesting area's.
i dont argue one more than the other i just argue the plain hypocrisy of saying lets ban the one i dont like because its worse.
fake attitude to me.
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Re: Swan Lake Wakeboarding

Postby danmartin » Sep 10th, 2012, 2:19 pm

[quote="vernongeek"]
danmartin wrote:I've been following this topic and can't believe some of the miss information that some are trying to present as fact.


:nutzoid:[/quote]


I'm not sure what you mean by your little nutziod? I'm not disputing the info you present as it seems to be backed up with studies and quotes?
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Re: Swan Lake Wakeboarding

Postby keith1612 » Sep 10th, 2012, 2:22 pm

vernongeek
"Yes you are very correct, it is your right to dispute facts. It is also the right for some people to dispute that the Earth is not round even though plenty of evidence to prove them otherwise. It is well within your right to dispute, however in my view, a better debate would be if you had actual facts to backup your claims and to dispute the facts I have provided rather than solely basing your disputes on opinion alone.

I am looking forward to you posting your hard facts that you have to backup your claims that boats have no adverse effect on wildlife and the habitat around it? As for your other statement, "as for ducks unlimited they mean very little to me and i dont generally go to the south end of the lake even snowmobiling."
Why does Ducks Unlimited mean very little to you? Why do you avoid the South end of the Lake? Perhaps you are finally admitting that fact Swan Lake is a sensitive habitat? After all, not to take your line but.... How you can half protect something?

What is amusing to me is everyone I talk to in person within Vernon was already under the impression power boats were banned from Swan Lake. As for your view on, very few that feel there is a problem, really? Maybe that is your impression, but I have the opposite impression.

As for local risks, I am confused what you mean about no evidence to show there is wildlife at risk, I think that is untrue. I already posted the study several times about the Western Grebe that was done specifically for Swan Lake in Vernon. How many times do I have to post one article?

As for you honoring the law, come on tell the full story. In your Enderby post, your comment about it's ok to have a beer while on a 5 hour float down the river, even though it is illegal. So how can you say you would honor the law?[/quote]"
end post

why do you post breaking the rules and whine about it when others do the same?
you complained and had my post removed with reference to other threads that you post saying you want all power boats removed from vernon and driven to kelowna.
then you go and drag a total unrelated topic into here.
you should learn to stay on topic but im learning you just use that when it serves your need,
yes i have no issues with having a beer on the river.
im also not a complainer trying to have others banned to keep my enjoyment purely my own.
i dont know where you are finding all these fools that think speedboats are banned on swan lake obviously they know nothing about the lakes in vernon or the issues around it.
you keep spouting wildlife protection but only half assed so it doesnt effect you.
sorry we know you dont like power boats or music or beer on any of the lakes in vernon, anyone who reads all your posts will clearly see that.
so lets keep it on topic shall we.
the BC government see's no issues on the lake hense its legal for all responsable users.
sorry if that upsets you.
Last edited by keith1612 on Sep 10th, 2012, 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Swan Lake Wakeboarding

Postby vernongeek » Sep 10th, 2012, 2:24 pm

keith1612 wrote:
if you read back vernongeek posted a expert who did say all boats large and small damage nesting area's.
i dont argue one more than the other i just argue the plain hypocrisy of saying lets ban the one i dont like because its worse.
fake attitude to me.


Yes you are correct. There was an expert that said ban all boats on Swan Lake. Remember your previous statements. I believe you called that expert a tree hugging fanatic. I quote you here. "yes you can always find tree hugging fanatics that have written reports trying to change everything to suit their needs but that doesn't make them fully correct."

However like I have said many times over, COMPROMISE. Banning all boats is not a likely scenario and is to the very extreme. The damage that wake-boards cause is again, 30 times greater then a kayak or a canoe ever will be. Did you read the report on how waves are created and how they affect lakes? Fake attitude, under no circumstances have I posted anything that is fake. Unless of course its a conspiracy that I am part of and all the documents I researched from the government are fake. Perhaps that is true, maybe it was aliens that posted those documents about Swan Lake on the government websites.

I think we can all agree Swan Lake is proven by scientists, all government levels, and other organizations that it is a very sensitive habitat/ecosystem. That being said, does it not make sense to protect the habitat we have left there?
Last edited by vernongeek on Sep 10th, 2012, 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Swan Lake Wakeboarding

Postby vernongeek » Sep 10th, 2012, 2:26 pm

danmartin wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by your little nutziod? I'm not disputing the info you present as it seems to be backed up with studies and quotes?

Check your PMessages. :) Somethings are best left unsaid. :) Thanks. Its all good.
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Re: Swan Lake Wakeboarding

Postby keith1612 » Sep 10th, 2012, 2:30 pm

sorry no i dont agree with you or your baseless statistics.
show me stats that say the wildlife population on swan lake is being reduced by boaters.
if anything the large amount of water fowl in vernon is creating more problems, swimmers itch etc.
you have no recent proof of any damage caused more or less by ski boats to your beloved kayak.
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