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Mandatory Snow Tires

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Re: Mandatory Snow Tires

Postby my5cents » Dec 6th, 2012, 4:11 pm

cv23 wrote:The braking of a vehicle is no different in a 4wd than a 2wd


Completely agree.

What might give some people the misconception that you can stop "better" with four wheel drive is this :

If you are driving a four wheel drive vehicle that has an automatic transmission....... If you have selected two wheel drive, in extremely slippery conditions and you apply the brakes gently, lets say maneuvering in a parking lot, the braking pressure may be enough to lock up your front wheels and the automatic transmission, being in drive, will have enough power to continue to turn your rear wheels. At this point, you will have lost all steering, because your front wheels will be locked and your rear wheels will be pushing you ahead.

In this same situation with the same vehicle with four wheel drive selected the brake pressure will be more uniform for your front wheels and your rear because they will both be connected to your transmission and you won't be propelled ahead by your rear wheels, while your front are locked.

Putting the transmission into neutral on a rear wheel drive vehicle with an automatic transmission in a dead slow speed stop rectifies the problem.
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Re: Mandatory Snow Tires

Postby kgcayenne » Dec 6th, 2012, 4:13 pm

my5cents wrote:Putting the transmission into neutral on a rear wheel drive vehicle with an automatic transmission in a dead slow speed stop rectifies the problem.


Is that legal? How far can you coast in N legally.
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Re: Mandatory Snow Tires

Postby my5cents » Dec 6th, 2012, 4:53 pm

kgcayenne wrote:Is that legal? How far can you coast in N legally.


Yes, it certainly is.

We're talking coming to a stop on a slippery surface, so what ? 5 - 10 feet.

If you thinking about the legalities of "coasting", the Motor Vehicle Act restricts coasting down a grade, there is no distance indicated.

    Coasting down grade
    197 When travelling down grade a driver must not coast with the gears of the vehicle in neutral or the clutch disengaged.

I'm talking about kicking the automatic transmission into neutral seconds before coming to a stop, not coasting down a hill.
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Re: Mandatory Snow Tires

Postby keith1612 » Dec 6th, 2012, 5:00 pm

Woodenhead wrote:I just tap the brakes to test traction. (obv. not in traffic)

Mandatory snow tires is bollocks. Unless someone else buys them for me. My non-winter tires are safer for the ~85% of the time when there's no snow/ice on the road in the valley, anyway. All Seasons are safer than winters when roads are dry or merely wet - that's a fact. (check consumer reports for tire ratings if you don't believe me)

Can't say I've ever had an issue on the Coq in winter - went to Van & back in a winter storm last year on M+S, no sweat. kgcayenne gets it.


tapping the brakes to test is the worst driving theory possible.
you are now assuming that the road is the same conditions 2 miles ahead.
always assume there is black ice etc when winter driving and you will do alot better.
i do agree all seasons are just as good if you drive paying attention.
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Re: Mandatory Snow Tires

Postby keith1612 » Dec 6th, 2012, 5:05 pm

my5cents wrote:
Completely agree.

What might give some people the misconception that you can stop "better" with four wheel drive is this :

If you are driving a four wheel drive vehicle that has an automatic transmission....... If you have selected two wheel drive, in extremely slippery conditions and you apply the brakes gently,[color=#8000BF] lets say maneuvering in a parking lot, the braking pressure may be enough to lock up your front wheels and the automatic transmission, being in drive, will have enough power to continue to turn your rear wheels[/color]. At this point, you will have lost all steering, because your front wheels will be locked and your rear wheels will be pushing you ahead.

In this same situation with the same vehicle with four wheel drive selected the brake pressure will be more uniform for your front wheels and your rear because they will both be connected to your transmission and you won't be propelled ahead by your rear wheels, while your front are locked.

Putting the transmission into neutral on a rear wheel drive vehicle with an automatic transmission in a dead slow speed stop rectifies the problem.

i dont know where you took mechanics but where i did thats 100% incorrect.
properly adjusted brakes will not allow the rear tires to continue pushing ahead even under a light application.
if this occurs you have a malfunctioning braking system.
i actually find ABS more of a danger in snow as it can apply and release and re apply.
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Re: Mandatory Snow Tires

Postby Glacier » Dec 6th, 2012, 5:24 pm

Highly illegal, but I once ran out of gas on the Coquahalla near the 97D interchange. I coasted 30 to 40 km all the way into a gas station in Kamloops. lol.

As for brakes, I hardly ever use them because I let my engine do most of the work. The brakes on both of my vehicles are more than 6 years old, and there's still lot of pad left. The key to winter driving is anticipation. It's perfectly okay to drive the speed limit this time of year, but always allow at least triple the stopping time if there is even a remote chance of ice; take it easy on corners and intersections. If it is icy, accelerate and decelerate slowly so you don't spin your tyres. It doesn't really matter what type of tyres you have, the same principle applies - though the worse the tyres grip the more defensive I drive.
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Re: Mandatory Snow Tires

Postby my5cents » Dec 6th, 2012, 5:31 pm

keith1612 wrote:i dont know where you took mechanics but where i did thats 100% incorrect.
properly adjusted brakes will not allow the rear tires to continue pushing ahead even under a light application.
if this occurs you have a malfunctioning braking system.
i actually find ABS more of a danger in snow as it can apply and release and re apply.

? So, you've never seen a driver, trying to stop their vehicle on an icy roadway (ie, the glare ice at an intersection, approaching the stop line), where their application of the brakes is hard enough to lock the front disk brakes, but the rear wheels are still propelling the vehicle forward ??

I see it all the time.

I agree with you about ABS.
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Re: Mandatory Snow Tires

Postby keith1612 » Dec 6th, 2012, 5:35 pm

my5cents wrote:? So, you've never seen a driver, trying to stop their vehicle on an icy roadway (ie, the glare ice at an intersection, approaching the stop line), where their application of the brakes is hard enough to lock the front disk brakes, but the rear wheels are still propelling the vehicle forward ??

I see it all the time.

I agree with you about ABS.


if you see a vehicle with the tires locked up in the front being pushed then it should be inspected on the spot.
no brakes are not designed to work that way.
yes fronts do 70% of the vehicle stopping but the back are supposed to lock at the same time if working correct.
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Re: Mandatory Snow Tires

Postby my5cents » Dec 6th, 2012, 5:53 pm

keith1612 wrote:if you see a vehicle with the tires locked up in the front being pushed then it should be inspected on the spot.
no brakes are not designed to work that way.
yes fronts do 70% of the vehicle stopping but the back are supposed to lock at the same time if working correct.

I guess we'll have to agee to disagree.

I've seen it, I know it happens.
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Re: Mandatory Snow Tires

Postby cv23 » Dec 6th, 2012, 6:25 pm

keith1612 wrote:i actually find ABS more of a danger in snow as it can apply and release and re apply.

That's exactly how a properly functioning ABS is supposed to work, only the application and release happens in milliseconds.
If you can actually feel your ABS equipped vehicle's brakes applying then releasing you have a serious brake problem that needs immediate attention.
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Re: Mandatory Snow Tires

Postby cv23 » Dec 6th, 2012, 6:26 pm

my5cents wrote:I guess we'll have to agee to disagree.

I've seen it, I know it happens.

Then your brakes are in serious need of attention and adjustment
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Re: Mandatory Snow Tires

Postby keith1612 » Dec 6th, 2012, 6:39 pm

cv23 wrote:That's exactly how a properly functioning ABS is supposed to work, only the application and release happens in milliseconds.
If you can actually feel your ABS equipped vehicle's brakes applying then releasing you have a serious brake problem that needs immediate attention.


i know how they work but in parking lots and some places you can in fact slide from ABS.
and no its not a faulty issue with the ABS, i worked in enough car dealerships road testing brand new vehicles to know faulty or just pain in the a$$.
ive had car salesmen ask me to remove ABS fuses to keep the customer happy and no complaints, i refused of course.
personally i have never liked ABS and would remove it if it was a option,
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Re: Mandatory Snow Tires

Postby cv23 » Dec 6th, 2012, 7:27 pm

keith1612 wrote:i know how they work but in parking lots and some places you can in fact slide from ABS.


:dyinglaughing: , you really think ABS makes cars skid??????
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Re: Mandatory Snow Tires

Postby keith1612 » Dec 6th, 2012, 7:51 pm

cv23 wrote:
:dyinglaughing: , you really think ABS makes cars skid??????

not skid but momentary loss of brakes in snow is not uncommon.
you can say its such a small amount its unnoticeable, maybe to you it may be.
i prefer standard brakes.
i dont like computors controling my braking and i can 100% tell the difference.
and i do not feel its safer on snow.
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Re: Mandatory Snow Tires

Postby ticat900 » Dec 6th, 2012, 9:50 pm

I have been a avid 4x4 er for 40 years and a master mechanic for the same and non of the posts I have read are factual
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