RCMP vs Provincial Police

[gordon_as]

I don't think a provincial police force , or city police force would end up being any better , or worse than the RCMP. You would still have a lot of good people , and a few not so good. I don't blame the RCMP for anything , they deal with the same scumbags day after day after day. The RCMP often get their man , only to watch him go through the revolving door we call the court system. They end up having to get him again , and again. I would love to know how many man hours just 1 of the many "prolific offenders" burns up. Time to build a big , huge , unpleasant jail and start locking up the people who offend , and re offend , again and again. The more of them that are taken off the street , the more time the RCMP will have to deal with the up and coming scum. Any bleeding hearts that feel the need to educate me about how prisons don't help will just be wasting their time. Less criminals out on the streets = less crime. period.

[goatboy]

So are some RCMP members Unionized... I'd say so. Truly the Municipal Unions are keeping your wages up there and no dues paid by you!!

There are no unionized RCMP members!

[Fancy]

RCMP Vets Association pay dues - they are NOT unionized.

[Ken7]

[quote="Kenyo"]http://www.mppac.ca/Mission

Reading the Mission statment of the MPPAC.CA which is active with the CPA, I'd suggest it is not much differant than any union..


Goatboy, not sure if you have ever been involved with the CPA. That is the Canadian Police Association. That is the largest Police UNION in Canada and they had also considered turning it into North America by inviting our southern brothers into it too.

I've been an active member of the CPA, I've personally met members from the RCMP at these meetings.

I do not know if you have ever been unionized, but just take the time to read the Mission statement above. If that isn't the beginning of the RCMP Union, I just can't help you out.

I believe even KL3 was not aware of it, but also agrees!! Oh, by the way KL is an active RCMP member if you have not figured that out!


Not sure where you've been....

[Fancy]

As the RCMP are not unionized (as yet), then those members attending the meeting would not be a union member of the RCMP. It's a federal police force.

[goatboy]

Reading the Mission statment of the MPPAC.CA which is active with the CPA, I'd suggest it is not much differant than any union..


Goatboy, not sure if you have ever been involved with the CPA. That is the Canadian Police Association. That is the largest Police UNION in Canada and they had also considered turning it into North America by inviting our southern brothers into it too.

I've been an active member of the CPA, I've personally met members from the RCMP at these meetings.

I do not know if you have ever been unionized, but just take the time to read the Mission statement above. If that isn't the beginning of the RCMP Union, I just can't help you out.

I believe even KL3 was not aware of it, but also agrees!! Oh, by the way KL is an active RCMP member if you have not figured that out!


Not sure where you've been....

Kenyo, I'm not trying to be argumentative here. I'm not an RCMP member but I do know that they are NOT unionized. Yes, there is an association, which according to their MIssion statement that you posted is

We seek to exercise our right to engage in free collective bargaining with our Employer, a right currently enjoyed by all police officers in Canada, except for RCMP members.

.

Two key points here. One is they are "Seeking", not actively doing and secondly they clearly state that the RCMP is the only organization that does NOT have the ability to do that. That is the main reason of unionisation, a collective bargaining agreement, which the RCMP do not have. Sure, members, probably SRR's, are at the CPA meetings, that is irrelevant as far as those members actually being in a Union.

I can't make it any simpler than that. There is an Association but RCMP members are NOT Unionized, period.

Also, I don't think the CPA is actually a Union, that represents it's members in collective bargaining with their employee's. This is the role of the CPA that I was able to find:

The Canadian Police Association represents 41,000 front-line police personnel across Canada. Membership includes police personnel serving in 170 police services across Canada, from small towns to those working in large municipal and provincial police forces, as well as members of the RCMP, railway police, and first nations police personnel.
The role of the Canadian Police Association is to:
lobby governments on police-related legislative and policy issues;
provide a collective support network for Member Associations to successfully improve representation and conditions for their own members in collective bargaining, education and training, equipment, health and safety, and protecting members’ rights;
advocate for adequate and equitable resources for policing;
identify key national issues which impact on Member Associations and facilitate the resolution of these issues;
react and respond, upon request, to local policing issues that may have national ramifications; and
liaise with the international policing bodies on issues affecting Canadian police personnel.

They help their members in their collective bargaining, but do not represent them. There's a difference. The Vancouver Police Union is also a member of the CPA. The CPA does not represent Vancouver Police officers in their collective bargaining, does not file grievances with the employer, does not mandate any job action, that is all done by the Vancouver Police Union.

The Association may be the beginning of a Union, but it is not one.

[my5cents]

The CPA is just that, an association. All police officers in Canada, as far as I know, with the exception of the RCMP are unionized, but the CPA is not a union.

KL could fill in the details I'm sure, but the RCMP have an internal association but have been prevented from having a union, by law. That law being the RCMP Act.

It doesn't sound like a law that could/should be even legal in this country but there you have it.

My take on this is that from their first day in Regina, these members have been brain washed into thinking that the RCMP is the greatest police force in the world and they are above every and all others.

As time has gone on, many of the old ways of training, have been modified, but still the product that comes from Regina is tainted.

In many area when RCMP and municipal police are teamed together there is, because of this RCMP mind set, great tension and lack of cooperation.

Having said that there are also many very good police officer, who are RCMP.

Some of the advancements in police officer safety, that we see in the larger police forces, who are unionized come from within the ranks, such as percentage of two man cars during certain times of the day, the use of body armor etc etc.

We continually see lone RCMP members in jeopardy either, resorting to deadly force themselves or being killed themselves because of a lack of backup readily available.

Nobody thinks of this, but the most dangerous scenario is a lone police officer and an unruly subject/suspect, when there is no backup at all. First you think “yes that would be dangerous for the police officer”. Yes, it is, but it is also dangerous for the subject/suspect. Why ? Because at some point if an altercation breaks out it isn’t a police officer restraining the suspect , it can become (no matter the training) a fight for life or death and all bets are off.

If we ever went to a provincial police department, and or a municipal local police (or regional municipal) the demands for more staffing just for officer safety alone would increase the size of the department.

I say categorically that if someone waved their magic wand and made Kelowna City, a division of the Vancouver Police Service this moment, the first thing that would have to happen would be a vast increase in manpower to reach minimum staffing standards of the VPD.

Even if you compare the staffing in of the Burnaby RCMP (they share a boundary with Vancouver) compared to Vancouver, there is a large difference.

[goatboy]

In Kelowna the stats are:

1 Police Officer per 784 residents with a case load of 96 per member. The cost per resident is $181

In Vancouver the stats are:

1 Police Officer per 475 residents with a case load of 39 per member. The cost per resident is $341 (almost twice as much)

Case load is the number of Criminal Code offences per authorized police strength. The case load represents the workload per officer in each jurisdiction

http://www.pssg.gov.bc.ca/police_services/publications/statistics/policeresourcesinbc.pdf

Very interesting stats to help compare the costs of Municipal vs RCMP services and the work load differences between forces. Also dispels the notion that the local RCMP just sit around and don't do anything.

[my5cents]

In Kelowna the stats are:

1 Police Officer per 784 residents with a case load of 96 per member. The cost per resident is $181

In Vancouver the stats are:

1 Police Officer per 475 residents with a case load of 39 per member. The cost per resident is $341 (almost twice as much)

Case load is the number of Criminal Code offences per authorized police strength. The case load represents the workload per officer in each jurisdiction

http://www.pssg.gov.bc.ca/police_services/publications/statistics/policeresourcesinbc.pdf

Very interesting stats to help compare the costs of Municipal vs RCMP services and the work load differences between forces. Also dispels the notion that the local RCMP just sit around and don't do anything.

Add to that the difference in how files are investigated. Generally,,, you report your car stolen, or you house broken into, the RCMP member who is assigned that file in Kelowna, a general duty member, owns that file, he will be putting in follow-up reports and servicing that file.

In a municipality with the size of Kelowna's population, but of course more police members, a municipal general duty member would attend as the Primary Investigation Unit, take the information, do the initial inquiries and hand the file over to a specialty squad such as the Burglary Squad or the Stolen Auto Squad.

Big difference when the general duty members are available on the street for the on view investigations and the primary investigations, they aren't tied up in the office, day in and out servicing pending files.

Also the efficiency of specialty squads receiving and handling all files of a certain type of crime to determine patterns and taking proactive action.

It boils down to money. In the Okanagan we're quick to criticize the RCMP who are doing a whole lot with the numbers they have.

[Ken7]

In Kelowna the stats are:

1 Police Officer per 784 residents with a case load of 96 per member. The cost per resident is $181

In Vancouver the stats are:

1 Police Officer per 475 residents with a case load of 39 per member. The cost per resident is $341 (almost twice as much)

Case load is the number of Criminal Code offences per authorized police strength. The case load represents the workload per officer in each jurisdiction

http://www.pssg.gov.bc.ca/police_services/publications/statistics/policeresourcesinbc.pdf

Very interesting stats to help compare the costs of Municipal vs RCMP services and the work load differences between forces. Also dispels the notion that the local RCMP just sit around and don't do anything.

______________________________________________

What is your profession??

Where are you retrieving your facts from?? Just curious.

[goatboy]

In Kelowna the stats are:

1 Police Officer per 784 residents with a case load of 96 per member. The cost per resident is $181

In Vancouver the stats are:

1 Police Officer per 475 residents with a case load of 39 per member. The cost per resident is $341 (almost twice as much)

Case load is the number of Criminal Code offences per authorized police strength. The case load represents the workload per officer in each jurisdiction

http://www.pssg.gov.bc.ca/police_services/publications/statistics/policeresourcesinbc.pdf

Very interesting stats to help compare the costs of Municipal vs RCMP services and the work load differences between forces. Also dispels the notion that the local RCMP just sit around and don't do anything.

______________________________________________

What is your profession??

Where are you retrieving your facts from?? Just curious.

I don't work in law enforcement. I did post a link to the last set of stats I used, otherwise, Google is your friend. Usually easy to find credible information with a little looking.

I wasn't trying to be argumentative with you just that there isn't an RCMP Union, yet.

[Ken7]

In Kelowna the stats are:

1 Police Officer per 784 residents with a case load of 96 per member. The cost per resident is $181

In Vancouver the stats are:

1 Police Officer per 475 residents with a case load of 39 per member. The cost per resident is $341 (almost twice as much)

Case load is the number of Criminal Code offences per authorized police strength. The case load represents the workload per officer in each jurisdiction

http://www.pssg.gov.bc.ca/police_services/publications/statistics/policeresourcesinbc.pdf

Very interesting stats to help compare the costs of Municipal vs RCMP services and the work load differences between forces. Also dispels the notion that the local RCMP just sit around and don't do anything.

Add to that the difference in how files are investigated. Generally,,, you report your car stolen, or you house broken into, the RCMP member who is assigned that file in Kelowna, a general duty member, owns that file, he will be putting in follow-up reports and servicing that file.

[b]In a municipality with the size of Kelowna's population, but of course more police members, a municipal general duty member would attend as the Primary Investigation Unit, take the information, do the initial inquiries and hand the file over to a specialty squad such as the Burglary Squad or the Stolen Auto Squad.[/b

]Big difference when the general duty members are available on the street for the on view investigations and the primary investigations, they aren't tied up in the office, day in and out servicing pending files.

Also the efficiency of specialty squads receiving and handling all files of a certain type of crime to determine patterns and taking proactive action.

It boils down to money. In the Okanagan we're quick to criticize the RCMP who are doing a whole lot with the numbers they have.

_____________________________________________________

This is amazing. If a department is non-existent how can you assume how it would function on a day-to-day basis??

The other fact, which I do know about, is what is considered or marked as a file. The RCMP filing is very much different from the Municipal Departments I know.

Are you saying GP here RCMP investigates robberies etc.. or would that realy be passed on or assigned to Major Crimes?? I guess that realy is a unfair question unless you police here, sorry.

[Ken7]

In Kelowna the stats are:

1 Police Officer per 784 residents with a case load of 96 per member. The cost per resident is $181

In Vancouver the stats are:

1 Police Officer per 475 residents with a case load of 39 per member. The cost per resident is $341 (almost twice as much)

Case load is the number of Criminal Code offences per authorized police strength. The case load represents the workload per officer in each jurisdiction

http://www.pssg.gov.bc.ca/police_services/publications/statistics/policeresourcesinbc.pdf

Very interesting stats to help compare the costs of Municipal vs RCMP services and the work load differences between forces. Also dispels the notion that the local RCMP just sit around and don't do anything.

______________________________________________

What is your profession??

Where are you retrieving your facts from?? Just curious.

I don't work in law enforcement. I did post a link to the last set of stats I used, otherwise, Google is your friend. Usually easy to find credible information with a little looking.

I wasn't trying to be argumentative with you just that there isn't an RCMP Union, yet.

_______________________________

That's fine, I had this conversation with a real RCMP member, there is no sense further debating it with you.

Let Google be your friend!!

[Fancy]

Don't forget about the Serious Crime Unit.

[goatboy]

That's fine, I had this conversation with a real RCMP member, there is no sense further debating it with you.

Let Google be your friend!!

OK, if that's how you feel. I guess you didn't even bother trying to understand what I was trying to explain to you. I don't think you understand what a Union is, but you obviously aren't going to listen to me.

However, KL3, who is actually a Mountie posted this:

RCMP members do not have a union. They have a Staff Relations Represetative system in place to deal with grievances but it is not a union. The SRR's challenged the RCMP Act on constitutional grounds because the RCMP Act prohibits unionization which, they argued, is contrary to the constitutional right to freedom of association. The Ontario court of Appeal sided with the SRR's and said that the RCMP members can unionize if they want to. The SRR's started the process of querying the members to see if the majority wanted to unionize. But then the RCMP appealed the Ontario decision to the Supreme Court of Canada so everything is in a holding pattern until that decision is rendered.

I bolded and underlined the key part to make it easier for you to see. However, I'm assuming that you're not going to believe him either. I would also suggest that if you Google RCMP Union, you will not find one post saying there is one.