Premier Christy Clark, how do you like her so far?

[flamingfingers]

I am sure that Hamish will thank his mom over and over again when he has to pay the debt his mom's government has left him with.

[Urbane]

Perhaps it's not about enumerating the comparative positive things any more, but rather enumerating the negative things and their relative severity, ...not to mention how long the effects will last. 50 to 60 years of ever increasing debt with no salvation on the horizon is a rather troubling scenario IMO. But then you and I should really care less, ...since we won't be around to worry about it anyway. May as well enjoy while we still can, right?
Nab

I think you must have missed 30 or 40 of my posts (LOL) if you think that I'm in favour of racking up debt. One of the reasons I voted to retain the HST was because I wanted enough revenue to keep our essential services going without adding to the debt.

[NAB]

LOL. And perhaps you missed the fact in so many posts that it is just as possible to raise enough revenue (even more than enough) to keep essential services going without the HST ;-) But surely we must all realize by now that has nothing to do with the factors involved in increasing debt - in fact it most probably would make the increases in debt even worse.

Nab

[Urbane]

LOL. And perhaps you missed the fact in so many posts that it is just as possible to raise enough revenue (even more than enough) to keep essential services going without the HST ;-)

Nab

It was a reckless decision to extinguish the HST. It added to our debt by forcing us to shell out $1.2 billion to Ottawa while decreasing our revenues as well. It's a bit rich to point the finger only at the government when it was 54% of those voting who made that bad call. Also, this government did have a balanced budget until just a few years ago when just about every government unbalanced the books to carry out a stimulus program. And the plan is to get back to balanced budgets two years from now. By the way, as I look at the books our province appears to be in far better shape than Ontario or Quebec. Putting things into perspective isn't always popular on here, particularly when discussing this government, but I thought I'd give it another try anyway.

[flamingfingers]

Urb rote:

I think you must have missed 30 or 40 of my posts (LOL) if you think that I'm in favour of racking up debt. One of the reasons I voted to retain the HST was because I wanted enough revenue to keep our essential services going without adding to the debt.

Urb: If it has not been made perfectly clear to you by now, let me MAKE it perfectly clear to you NOW:

The HST was brought in to provide the Liberal government an ongoing cash cow. To be put into General Revenue to attempt to balance their books from all the monetary fiascoes (Basi-Virk, Owelympics, etc, etc). That is exactly why we are STILL paying the HST and will continue to pay this punitive tax for another year. The HST is a frivolity tax that only goes to pay for this 'loose change government' - to be tapped when friends and cronies appear at the trough. To think otherwise, to assume that the funds garnered from the HST will go to pay off the debt is indeed naive to the penultimate.

[NAB]

Putting things into perspective isn't always popular on here, particularly when discussing this government, but I thought I'd give it another try anyway.

Ya, I know, and I give you credit for the effort. But it is clear that only a naive few are being fooled by those arguments any more. Besides, it is all but over related to the HST.. so give it up already. No matter how hard you try to cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. And that goes for Christy's government as well.

Nab

[Urbane]

Ya, I know, and I give you credit for the effort. But it is clear that only a naive few are being fooled by those arguments any more. Besides, it is all but over... so give it up already. No matter how hard you try to cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. And that goes for Christy's government as well.

Nab

The real naiveté is from those who want the services but who always expect "someone else" to pay for them. I'll give you credit for wanting government to show restraint but many of your anti-government cohorts do not share that trait with you. I also agree with you that this government is dead in the water but I disagree with the hyperbole that we've read on here from some. I'm off to continue reading my book so enjoy the rest of your evening (which will be easier to do without me annoying you on here).

[steven lloyd]

Some people have let their emotions override their common sense.

That is true. Some people still want to argue that fudged memos and missing Skytrain tickets (ten thousand dollar sun decks from the nineties) are far bigger transgressions than six million dollar payouts to fall-guys in planned efforts to obstruct justice and the Court process, bigger than redacted documents being provided under FOIA requests, and bigger than discontinued commission hearings that someone in government figured out might reveal a bit more about the agenda to dismantle BC Hydro alomg with future tax dollar contractual agreements to fatten the pockets of Liberal "friends' than this current regime is prepared to have revealed (this is the abbreviated list).

Some people even believe “common sense” tells them we should re-elect this Liberal government one more time so we don’t end up with a premier who fudged a memo and scammed a Skytrain ticket. They are outraged and seriously believe these transgressions (or ancient NDP history) outweigh the extent and degree of Liberal malfeasance over the last 12 years and that continues as we speak. How are we supposed to take these people seriously when their greatest (and only) defence of ongoing Liberal malfeasance is deflected references to fudged memos, scamming Skytain tickets, and “what about the nineties”? These posters are so convinced by their rhetoric they don’t even recognize how ridiculous and lame they sound.

As I’ve stated before I won’t be voting NDP ( I strongly oppose their position on economic resource development ), but in my opinion there is nothing more important than removing this current band of criminals ( and I no longer have any problem calling them that ). The oil and gas and other resources will always be there and will always be in demand. The most important thing is that we need to remove the most deceitful and corrupt political party ever known in the history of this province - even if it means a term or even two of the NDP.

Some might think the best case scenario would be a minority government with the Conservatives (who I will still probably plug my nose and vote for just to feed the idea of alternative choice), but I personally hope the Liberals are wiped out without winning a single seat - although the preponderance of brain dead voters in the Okanagan might ultimately prevent that. Either way, the right in this province needs to reinvent itself to provide an option that people might eventually come to associate with integrity and accountability and who can be believed to represent the best interests of the people who voted for them as opposed to just those corporate donors who funded their way to power.

[steven lloyd]

Putting things into perspective isn't always popular on here, particularly when discussing this government, but I thought I'd give it another try anyway.

Yes, the Liberal government has accomplished a few good things. So has every other government. On the other hand, no other government has been involved in the collusion and malfeasance to the extent and degree of this government. No other government has been as arrogant and considered themselves to be as high above the law. No other government has done as much damage, cost us as much and committed the tax payers to a longer term of paying for the consequences of back room deals with their "friends". Anything the NDP has ever done pales. That is the perspective you seem to want us to ignore.

[Logitack]

The real naiveté is from those who want the services but who always expect "someone else" to pay for them.

and there is the rub, isnt it... it is ok for citizens to keep on paying more and more .... hst but it is perfectly fine, at least with liberals, for business to benefit from the hst and every other tax breaks they have received courtesy of the liberals. So while liberals and their sheeple... i mean followers, make excuses for all of their government's short comings and out and out disgraceful pandering to business, it is the citizens would continually get the shaft and retort from liberal followers saying "where is the money going to come from to pay for the services everyone wants". well, in fact, it should come from EVERYONE, citizens, small and medium sized businesses, and corporations so that government can provide those needed services for ALL citizens.

[Smurf]

No one has ever said the Liberals have never done anything good. We are just trying to point out that the harm they have done and continue to do, so far outweighs the good that there is no prespective. Even comparing to other provinces doesn't work unless you compare the damage that is still to come for the next 50 years. These provinces might be a bit worse off now but have they set themselves up for the disasterous future that we, the liberals, have in BC.

When the current downturn in the economy started and I said our government should be preparing for trouble, I was told on here I was wrong. I and others said that the problems in the US would pour over into Canada. And we were told by the Liberals, by the infalible economists, and by the Liberal faithful on here that we were wrong. The Canadian economy was strong and wouldn't be seriously hurt like the US. Then a few years too late, the lights came on and my god we're in trouble. Who would have believed it. Now those people want to blame it all on the economy. Nothing to do with the lack of foresight and preparation. Now they cry that their HST would have saved the world but the majority of dum people didn't understand that and ruined it all. No reference whatsoever to the fact that they had previously cut taxes and that helped to get us in this position in the first place. No reference to the fact that trying to transfer the tax burden to the people blew up in their face. They are in a position that is largely their own doing. Yes the economic downturn helped but their own foolishness was a huge contributor.

[my5cents]

Urb: If it has not been made perfectly clear to you by now, let me MAKE it perfectly clear to you NOW:

The HST was brought in to provide the Liberal government an ongoing cash cow. To be put into General Revenue to attempt to balance their books from all the monetary fiascoes (Basi-Virk, Owelympics, etc, etc). That is exactly why we are STILL paying the HST and will continue to pay this punitive tax for another year. The HST is a frivolity tax that only goes to pay for this 'loose change government' - to be tapped when friends and cronies appear at the trough. To think otherwise, to assume that the funds garnered from the HST will go to pay off the debt is indeed naive to the penultimate.

Speaking of the HST,,,, politicians use words and they use them well...

Reminiscent of the old child's joke -
"I have two coins, they add up to 35 cents. One of them is not a dime. What are they"
Retort : "That's impossible"
Answer: "A dime and a quarter"
Retort : But you said "one of them isn't a dime"
Answer: "Yes, but the other one is"

What haven't we seen ? .... any information on the return of the PST.
Why haven't we ? A government that is in as much trouble as the Liberals, would love to have some good news, so if they could announce the details of the return of the PST, wouldn't that be what they are looking for ? Some good news ? We have un-elected premier photo-op, running around re-announcing programs two and three times, she will show up for the opening of anything, especially if she can cut a ribbon and take credit for whatever it is even if her government had absolutely nothing to do with it.

So wouldn't the return of the PST be a great announcement ?????

It would,,, unless there is something afoot.

The word play is that they will "return to the PST". They will return to a tax called PST. They never said it would be the same tax the PST was.

Just wait,,,, the "new PST" will not be good news. IF it was good news we would have heard it already.

Fool us once shame on you. Fool us twice, shame on us.

Shame on us.

Here an exerpt from "The Straight Goods" for what it's worth http://powellriverpersuader.blogspot.ca/

"......And then there`s Kevin Falcon who hasn`t yet told the public that corporations will be able to keep all their HST inputs and carry on as if we voters accepted the HST, for those of you not paying attention the PST exemptions are coming back, along with new taxes, legal fees will remain taxed at 12%..Used car sales, boat sales will remain taxed at higher levels then pre-HST days, there is also a planned restaurant and entertainment tax, in other words these spineless lying BC Liberals have about $1.4 billion in new taxes coming to British Columbians, with the elimination of the HST rebate for the poor BC doesn`t need $2 billion in new taxation, only about $1.4 billion...

I`ve looked at the legislation to bring back the PST/GST..There isn`t a single past exemption listed, not one, what we have brewing in Patrick Kinsella premier`s office is a back-door HST, corporations will not be returning to the previous tax structure, in other words BC Liberal corporate masters will keep all their exemptions..."

[NAB]

Yabut, didn't Falcon give the excuse that they didn't have time to incorporate the various exemptions in the legislation enabling the return to PST, and that Cabinet would address those other things later since Christy has been adamant she will not allow the legislature to work extra time ? I guess we have to "assume" that what little they have accomplished is deemed adequate to satisfy the requirement of returning to the PST "as it was", and that everything else related to specific details regarding the exemption lists, even the PST level itself, (for both business and individual consumers) are on the table for handling behind closed doors and subject to Cabinet secrecy requirements? Hevin forbid we should ever expect the public's business to be openly and transparently debated in public in BC.

And of course we have to consider the timeline. There is the summer glad-handing among the choir, photo-ops, sales pitches, and BBQ with wine and cheese tasting circuit to deal with, and there (presumably) will be a fall session of the legislature (but perhaps not, ya never know these days it seems) that may or may not have tax issues such as PST levels and exemptions on the agenda (most likely not with an election on the horizon), then we're into the budgeting process - an election budget that everyone will (or at least should) take with a grain of salt! Then the PST (in whatever incomplete form it exists at the time) lands in April, and we are shortly thereafter off and running in an election campaign.

All we can be sure of at this point is that confusion (and uncertainty) will persist in BC until well toward the end of 2013 when we (perhaps) will see real and honestly audited economic performance actuals (as opposed to just more "on track to a balanced budget" propaganda and spin), ...and then "business as usual" until we find out where things really sit sometime in 2014/15/16 - more than half way down the road to yet another election in 2017.

All we can hope for is that the BC Conservatives can come up with and offer us something entirely different that stops this ridiculous merry go round of tax and fee and indebt more, and spend even more, we are trapped on, ....along with this crazy two party political polarization and related silly games.

Nab

[Smurf]

Whatever happens I'm afraid it isn't going to be good for some time. Even if we get someone in who actually tries it is going to take a long time to get out of the mess we are in.

[Urbane]

Whatever happens I'm afraid it isn't going to be good for some time. Even if we get someone in who actually tries it is going to take a long time to get out of the mess we are in.

Apparently we're dead in the water for at least the next 60 years, so we're beyond "the sky is falling" and have arrived at "the sky has fallen." There is no hope. All is lost. We have the worst government in history and we're in the worst position of any province. We're a "have not" province with no reason to feel positive. I would advise citizens to move elsewhere, anywhere will do, where the grass is greener. Please don't come back with some optimistic comment about the future or you'll show yourself to be a Liberal lapdog and apologist for this band of criminals, all of whom should be behind bars (or worse).