Question about HST

[Urbane]

LOL, so what it to appears boil down to is, just like Gordo's Cabinet, it all comes down to a 1.6 billion bribe from the feds (our own money, different pocket) at time of fiscal crisis produced over ten years by the BC Government. Every other argument is just fluff and uncertainty.
nab

It's good to see you still have an open mind!

[flamingfingers]

My ballot is still sitting here unmarked and will sit here until it is time for it to be mailed. I am looking for reasons WHY I should or should not vote to keep the HST. I am not convinced it is in the best interests of the BC people... YET. I can see advantages to keeping the HST as well. Given reasoned, rational points for either side will allow me to mark my ballot accordingly. BUT I am very suspicious of the hard sell the government and ProHST are putting on. Kinda reminds me of walking onto a used car lot and talking to a desperate salesman. The more force put on me, the more resistant I am.

[Urbane]

My ballot is still sitting here unmarked and will sit here until it is time for it to be mailed. I am looking for reasons WHY I should or should not vote to keep the HST. I am not convinced it is in the best interests of the BC people... YET. I can see advantages to keeping the HST as well. Given reasoned, rational points for either side will allow me to mark my ballot accordingly. BUT I am very suspicious of the hard sell the government and ProHST are putting on. Kinda reminds me of walking onto a used car lot and talking to a desperate salesman. The more force put on me, the more resistant I am.

Yes, true enough. But do you not see a hard sell on the other side? I do. People should seek out other, more neutral, sources of information and not depend on the government's line or the Fight HST line. On that we might agree.

[susyq]

The way I see it is with HST we are taxed on everything including pre packaged food items at 12%....With the GST & HST we were only taxed 5% GST on most items like used clothing, used cars, new homes, (actually all construction) pre packaged food items, Restaurant, Coffee @ Timmies,Taxi, Limousine, haircuts, dog food etc....So the Clark Gov't is saying that the HST will be 10% in 2014 (maybe) and we will all save money with the lower tax base? That's poppycock!!! The GST is 5%....that's where the average Joe will save money, reverting back to the old system....The Gov't has put such a spin on this referendum, even the Yes or No answer is backwards as to confuse people!!!!

[NAB]

Too much work? Less work to just cast them aside out of hand and go back to more generalities and political mumbo jumbo I guess LOL. You obviously see more in them than I do related to the HST, but refuse to show me how. I suspect it is because you cannot, or are simply afraid to open your mind to the facts because it would make you the one who looks "silly". For one who keeps suggesting we put the politics aside and deal with detail, you are sure finding lots of ways to avoid doing it.
Nab

LOL. I realize you're embarrassed for that post earlier which showed some positives in our economic climate since the HST was introduced but don't take it out on me. It was your post and not mine. But as I've said all along, and just a few minutes ago to Flaming, I'm not claiming overnight economic improvement because of the HST. The independent panel used that very word, "overnight," in saying what wouldn't happen. They did, however, say there would be good things happening over time. I won't list them again because you know what they are and I just mentioned some of them in a post a few minutes ago. Finally, I've also said there are pluses and minuses of each tax system but I've come to the conclusion that the HST is better than the PST for many reasons. You see "facts" on your side that I'm supposed to recognize but you don't seem very interested in looking at the facts on the other side. And that's okay because it's a free country and you can vote for the PST to "send a message" to the Liberal Party.

Just more of the same old same old Urbane. I'm in no way embarrassed by that post because I set out to try and produce some NEUTRAL data for both sides to analyse and consider. I challenged you to show me in detail how the HST relates to your interpretation of the data, and you declined. No sense me trying to discuss taxation detail with you I guess, it just gets ignored and goes 'round in never ending circles, .....and then once again back to the political aspect.

Nab

[flamingfingers]

My ballot is still sitting here unmarked and will sit here until it is time for it to be mailed. I am looking for reasons WHY I should or should not vote to keep the HST. I am not convinced it is in the best interests of the BC people... YET. I can see advantages to keeping the HST as well. Given reasoned, rational points for either side will allow me to mark my ballot accordingly. BUT I am very suspicious of the hard sell the government and ProHST are putting on. Kinda reminds me of walking onto a used car lot and talking to a desperate salesman. The more force put on me, the more resistant I am.

Yes, true enough. But do you not see a hard sell on the other side? I do. People should seek out other, more neutral, sources of information and not depend on the government's line or the Fight HST line. On that we might agree.

Only problem I have here Urbane is the fact that the anti-HST people have really NOTHING to gain. Except perhaps the satisfaction of calling government decisions into question. On the other hand, the pro-HST (government, big business) has MUCH to be gained monetarily speaking. Whether this in fact ends up as a plus for the PEOPLE of BC is still a moot point. But, if past performance is any indicator, where there is money and power to be had, there will be a big push to make it happen.

As far as paying back the 1.6 bil.... it will simply go from my left hand pocket to my right hand pocket. But in the meantime, I will have to take out of my back pocket to pay for all the additional 'things' added to the HST that were exempt from the PST.

[NAB]

LOL, so what it to appears boil down to is, just like Gordo's Cabinet, it all comes down to a 1.6 billion bribe from the feds (our own money, different pocket) at time of fiscal crisis produced over ten years by the BC Government. Every other argument is just fluff and uncertainty.
nab

It's good to see you still have an open mind!

LOL, I was referring to your response to Flaming as to the 1.6 billion being YOUR prime hot button to the exclusion of much else... not the way I view the situation.

Nab

[Urbane]

Only problem I have here Urbane is the fact that the anti-HST people have really NOTHING to gain. Except perhaps the satisfaction of calling government decisions into question. On the other hand, the pro-HST (government, big business) has MUCH to be gained monetarily speaking. Whether this in fact ends up as a plus for the PEOPLE of BC is still a moot point. But, if past performance is any indicator, where there is money and power to be had, there will be a big push to make it happen.

As far as paying back the 1.6 bil.... it will simply go from my left hand pocket to my right hand pocket. But in the meantime, I will have to take out of my back pocket to pay for all the additional 'things' added to the HST that were exempt from the PST.

I think many of the anti-HST people are focusing on the extra money they're currently paying out for restaurant meals and the other items that weren't taxed under the PST> Some are also sending a message. On the other side many of us who are pro-HST don't own a business. I do have pension funds invested in business (though not exclusively in BC) and I've always believed that in general what's good for business tends to be good for the whole economy but other than that I have nothing to gain personally. I just really think that the economy will be better with the HST than it will be by reverting back to the two taxes we had before. And almost every other place in the world has a VAT of one sort or another, including Canada with the GST.

As for the $1.6 billion you have to remember that it's one thing if it's spread out to all of Canada and quite another for it to be a burden on just the 4 million people in BC. It is money that we could have used for programs here. Perhaps some people who are fiscally conservative are opposing the HST with the hope that it will force substantial government cuts. Maybe Vander Zalm is thinking that way but I can't say for sure.

Anyway it's pretty well over now. I think the writing is on the wall and we'll be discussing what happens next. I was reading Vaughan Palmer's column this morning and he was saying that with the prospect of a referendum defeat Clark is unlikely to go to the polls this fall. And with the NDP opposed to a fall election there should be relatively little criticism of that decision. Palmer's betting is for the fall of 2012 and even the NDP agree that moving it from spring to fall makes sense since it would coincide with our fiscal year much better. Time will tell.

[NAB]

As for the $1.6 billion you have to remember that it's one thing if it's spread out to all of Canada and quite another for it to be a burden on just the 4 million people in BC. It is money that we could have used for programs here. Perhaps some people who are fiscally conservative are opposing the HST with the hope that it will force substantial government cuts. Maybe Vander Zalm is thinking that way but I can't say for sure.

Lets try to deal with this "little" item, although it has been dealt with many times before. The "new" HST provides for per capita bribes to all provinvial governments, not just BC. Ontario got a big one, and most recently Quebec something like 2.2 billion retroactive. BC taxpayers pick up their share of all those bribes, plus those that will go to any other provincial Governments who go with HST, not just the BC one should HST get shot down here. It's not 1.6 billion anyway, it's only around 1 billion. We *bleep* far more than that away on a two week party called the Olympics and its aftermath before the HST even became a major issue.

Nab

[Urbane]

Just more of the same old same old Urbane. I'm in no way embarrassed by that post because I set out to try and produce some NEUTRAL data for both sides to analyse and consider. I challenged you to show me in detail how the HST relates to your interpretation of the data, and you declined. No sense me trying to discuss taxation detail with you I guess, it just gets ignored and goes 'round in never ending circles, .....and then once again back to the political aspect.

Nab

I gave you an answer. Just because you don't like my answer doesn't mean you didn't get one. I said that while it was nice to see the positive things happening with our economy right now that the benefits of the HST will come over time. I also mentioned that the independent panel has said the same thing. That's my answer. It really doesn't matter what I say anyway, Nab, because you just say I'm a parrot or make some other snide remark about me not knowing the real "facts" that you know. So really you're not interested in anything that I have to say anyway. Time for a nice walk on this beautiful Okanagan evening. I trust the weather on the island is good for you too. Enjoy.

[NAB]

Just more of the same old same old Urbane. I'm in no way embarrassed by that post because I set out to try and produce some NEUTRAL data for both sides to analyse and consider. I challenged you to show me in detail how the HST relates to your interpretation of the data, and you declined. No sense me trying to discuss taxation detail with you I guess, it just gets ignored and goes 'round in never ending circles, .....and then once again back to the political aspect.

Nab

I gave you an answer. Just because you don't like my answer doesn't mean you didn't get one. I said that while it was nice to see the positive things happening with our economy right now that the benefits of the HST will come over time. I also mentioned that the independent panel has said the same thing. That's my answer. It really doesn't matter what I say anyway, Nab, because you just say I'm a parrot or make some other snide remark about me not knowing the real "facts" that you know. So really you're not interested in anything that I have to say anyway. Time for a nice walk on this beautiful Okanagan evening. I trust the weather on the island is good for you too. Enjoy.

Duck and dodge urbane, duck and dodge. Still, you seem to be admitting that the HST "benefits" are a down the road thing if at all as you see them, and are disagreeing with Dickie that what positive we see in the economy to date has anything to do with the HST. That's at least some progress toward reality LOL.

Edit to add: You may even recall that wayyyyyyy back in the beginning, think tanks, experts, and economists advising the BC Government acknowledged that we could see at least 5 years of negative or stagnant impact before any positives to HST could be expected. In the meantime however massive amounts of extra money are being extracted from consumers/taxpayers, the main reason being to try to get rid of the fiscal deficits that constantly accumulate and help get back to balanced budgets.

Nab

[Urbane]

Good try Nab but no cigar. I didn't say that the good things happening with our economy now are because or not because of the HST. I just don't know for sure. We've certainly come a long way now from those who were predicting doom and gloom if the HST was brought in. Restaurant sales would be down, the economy would suffer as people stopped buying, and it would just be awful. Now it turns out that things are looking up and you're trying to say that the good news might not be because of the HST. That is really really funny. How far you've come. I don't know for sure to what extent, if any, the HST has helped improve our economy but I am convinced that long-term it will. That's my honest best for you. You can twist that to say otherwise but that's what I'm saying. It's also funny that you say that the benefits of the HST are years away, thereby admitting that the benefits are coming. And that's what the independent panel says. If we get some benefits now and in the near future, which might well be the case, all the better. But why return to a tax that doesn't offer those benefits? It just doesn't make sense Nab. You'll send a message but the message will be that you're shooting yourself in the foot.

As for your arguments about the $1.6 billion they just don't wash. Yes, Quebec is getting money, Ontario is getting money, and somehow it's okay if we forfeit $1.6 billion because there is only one taxpayer. Frankly, that makes no sense. Anyway, those of you who think this is a brilliant time to return to the PST-GST will get your way so we'll see how YOUR plan turns out.

[NAB]

Obviously 'tis you who should take the time for a more careful read of my post urbane. "now it turns out things are looking up" -really???? I guess it depends on your persepective. After all, when you reach near the bottom, any progress at all is "up".

Nab

[Urbane]

Obviously 'tis you who should take the time for a more careful read of my post urbane. "now it turns out hings are looking up" -really???? I guess it depends on your persepective. After all, when you reach near the bottom, any progress at all is "up".

Nab

Near the bottom? Well, of course you considered the 1990's boom years in BC so it really does depend on your perspective. And of course speaking of "ducking and dodging" you ignored my other points about what the independent panel said about economic benefits in the future. But that's okay.

[NAB]

Obviously 'tis you who should take the time for a more careful read of my post urbane. "now it turns out hings are looking up" -really???? I guess it depends on your persepective. After all, when you reach near the bottom, any progress at all is "up".

Nab

Near the bottom? Well, of course you considered the 1990's boom years in BC so it really does depend on your perspective. And of course speaking of "ducking and dodging" you ignored my other points about what the independent panel said about economic benefits in the future. But that's okay.

No, I didn't ignore anything, it's just a bit difficult to keep track of all your dodging and weaving and regurgitation lol. Anyway, there you go again with political innuendo. The 90's have nothing to do with the "bottom". The most recent "bottom" occurred around 4 years ago, and we are still in it more or less.

Edit to add: BTW, you had better hope BC gets its act together my mid 2012, or by early 2013 you can bend over, put your head between your legs, and kiss your financial a$$ goodby if you are still here ;-)

Nab