Poverty costs BC $9 billion a year

[Captain Awesome]

Baggo,

I think you and gramma have completely different outlook on life. Hence you'll never agree on anything.

While you list things that are certainly factual, gramma points out that you can work around those things. Especially if you're not trapped in victim mentality. It doesn't make them any less factual, but it takes that "the sky is falling" factor out of them.

[grammafreddy]

As long as you think of yourself as a victim, you will always be a victim.

Some people LOVE being a victim - it qualifies them for all kinds of hand-outs and bail-outs. It means they don't have to be responsible for their actions or accountable to society, their friends, their families, their peers and/or co-workers.

Some people LOVE having people feeling victimized ... it pays their (usually high) wages and they feed off victims and go out of their way to convince people they have been victimized.

When government decides those have maxed their abilities to fund them all, victims scream even louder and the ones whose jobs depend upon providing services to victims do their own fair share (and then some) to try to convince government to keep funding these victims - and their cushy jobs.

Left wing and right wing have nothing really to do with it. Its all about hanging onto the funding for the poor, the sick, the victimized, etc ... that brings out the likes of the Fraser Institute and the CCPA and other publicly funded groups and organizations.

[The Green Barbarian]

Bago math:

It's just selfish greed and lust of power that keeps people in their place. The middle class lost 15% of their influence on the economy and the top 5% earners absorbed it over the last 20 years

Source?

In order to get a post secondary education and not be poor you need to drop 40+ grand down on tuition and books. Plus pay for food and shelter while your doing 40 hours a week of classes

Source?

70% of Canada lives cheque to cheque

Source?

A guy won the Nobel peace prize for creating "micro-loans" - zero interest small loans that help people break out of the "poverty cycle". Just study the poverty cycle to see how this is a built in part of our society to keep the kings in their castles

This, ironically enough, is actually true - well all except the "zero interest" part- that 's not true at all - no micro-lending organization could function on a "zero interest" basis. The "guy" in question is named Muhammed Yunis. You should read his book - "Banker to the Poor" - excellent read, and an amazing humanitarian. He brought in the micro-loan program to his country of Bangladesh, as he saw that the majority of the population was trapped in a poverty cycle brought on by money-lenders who were charging such high rates of interest that no one could ever break out of this cycle. This is where the comparison to Canada ends Bago. How anyone could compare Bangladesh to Canada just baffles my mind. Unlike the "poor" of Canada, the "poor" of Bangladesh do not have the following -

1. Welfare payments
2. Free health care
3. Food banks
4. Clean drinking water
5. Access to education
6. Sanitation facilties
7. Disease-free food
8. Free inoculations
9. Job training
10. access to cheap energy and electricity

That's just a start. The people of Bangladesh just needed a helping hand, and Yunis provided it, and it's amazing how far he has taken that program. Those people in Bangladesh wanted a start, and they got it. We're well past that here in Canada - we've crossed the barrier of the extreme poverty of the third world, and our problems are completely different. Could micro-lending work here? Maybe. But the problems in Canada are completely different.

[steelrules]

Barbarian you must live in a fantasy world if you didn't already know this.
Canadians living paycheck to paycheck.
http://www.680news.com/news/local/artic ... ation-says
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... le1705096/
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/201009 ... ue-100913/

Rich getting richer.
http://business.financialpost.com/2011/ ... ng-richer/
http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/loca ... lumbiaHome
http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2010/12/09 ... ssues.html

Or you just like to spin

[Bagotricks]

Bago math:

It's just selfish greed and lust of power that keeps people in their place. The middle class lost 15% of their influence on the economy and the top 5% earners absorbed it over the last 20 years

Source?

In order to get a post secondary education and not be poor you need to drop 40+ grand down on tuition and books. Plus pay for food and shelter while your doing 40 hours a week of classes

Source?

70% of Canada lives cheque to cheque

Source?

A guy won the Nobel peace prize for creating "micro-loans" - zero interest small loans that help people break out of the "poverty cycle". Just study the poverty cycle to see how this is a built in part of our society to keep the kings in their castles

This, ironically enough, is actually true - well all except the "zero interest" part- that 's not true at all - no micro-lending organization could function on a "zero interest" basis. The "guy" in question is named Muhammed Yunis. You should read his book - "Banker to the Poor" - excellent read, and an amazing humanitarian. He brought in the micro-loan program to his country of Bangladesh, as he saw that the majority of the population was trapped in a poverty cycle brought on by money-lenders who were charging such high rates of interest that no one could ever break out of this cycle. This is where the comparison to Canada ends Bago. How anyone could compare Bangladesh to Canada just baffles my mind. Unlike the "poor" of Canada, the "poor" of Bangladesh do not have the following -

Middle class dissipated - http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/200 ... ncome.html Of course this isn't the only article, but if your going to "make" me point out the obvious, have at 'er. Google is your friend GB.

I need to "source" you to prove that getting a Post Secondary is expensive and necessary to succeed in this world? Why waste everyone's time GB?

Steel already sourced the 70% figure, so yes, the majority of people in Canada are 2 weeks away from loosing everything. Fun times.

I said "some guy" because I was pressed for time. It certainly gave you a opportunity to sound informed though. Considering the interest charges on 20 dollar micro loans amount to pennies - yes GB - *some* interest was charged. Its not a apple - its a red apple. *rolls eyes*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_poverty

There are many disadvantages that collectively work in a circular process making it virtually impossible for individuals to break the cycle. This occurs when poor people do not have the resources necessary to get out of poverty, such as financial capital, education, or connections. In other words, poverty-stricken individuals experience disadvantages as a result of their poverty, which in turn increases their poverty. This would mean that the poor remain poor throughout their lives. This cycle has also been referred to as a "pattern" of behaviors and situations which cannot easily be changed

In terms of this "victim" role - funny - but the poor keep getting poorer while the rich buy up more and more of the world. How does that "fact" exempt them from being victims? They are just lazy? SOME are lazy? Isn't that generalizing? I do alright for myself, but I feel bad for the people being victimized and identify the problems they face.

I call them victims because we CAN help them, but our economy would tank in the process - nobody can deny it. We need poor people so other people can be rich. Hence, they are victims.

Then again, as some posters here seem to think - the poor just need to quit whining and get a better job. So what happens when everyone does? Who's working at Tim Horton's then? The game is rigged and you are lucky if you don't fail because by design that is what happens to most - poverty out of necessity for "the system".

[Oxl3y]

Then again, as some posters here seem to think - the poor just need to quit whining and get a better job. So what happens when everyone does? Who's working at Tim Horton's then? The game is rigged and you are lucky if you don't fail because by design that is what happens to most - poverty out of necessity for "the system".

How about 16-20 year olds? No self respecting adult should be working in fast food. Can't find a better job? Move. Aren't qualified for anything? Go back to school. You'll say its just not that easy but that's a lie, everyone is perfectly able to improve their own situation just most are either too lazy or unwilling to do what it takes.

Also 40+ grand is probably correct if you want to spend 4-6 years in school but my 2.5 year course will run me just over 10 grand and with the co-op portion has already nailed me a permanent position with the City of Calgary for $26 an hour to start. There are also much cheaper, much shorter trade courses that give people an excellent place to start.

[steven lloyd]

As long as you think of yourself as a victim, you will always be a victim.

I agree with you 100% here grammy. The victim mentality is no more or less productive than the blaming mentality.

But what do I know? I’m probably making too much money anyway.

[steven lloyd]

The people of Bangladesh just needed a helping hand, and Yunis provided it, and it's amazing how far he has taken that program. Those people in Bangladesh wanted a start, and they got it. We're well past that here in Canada - we've crossed the barrier of the extreme poverty of the third world, and our problems are completely different. Could micro-lending work here? Maybe. But the problems in Canada are completely different.

Good points made GB. However, it would be a mistake to assume everyone living in poverty in Canada is doing so because they choose to, or are just too lazy or are looking for hand-outs. It is far more complex than that (google conflict theory, or theories of disempowerment, for example) but I’m not going to engage in this tired old argument. I’m not putting this on you GB (I see you've done some research), but for a number of posters here blaming is just so much simpler than understanding. Being a victim solves nothing. Blaming solves nothing.

[flamingfingers]

Being a victim solves nothing. Blaming solves nothing.

And being able to 'blame' something/somebody ALLOWS you to feel comfortable being a "victim".

[steven lloyd]

Being a victim solves nothing. Blaming solves nothing.

And being able to 'blame' something/somebody ALLOWS you to feel comfortable being a "victim".

That's right. There's nothing simple about this issue (contrary to popular opinion).

[The Green Barbarian]

The people of Bangladesh just needed a helping hand, and Yunis provided it, and it's amazing how far he has taken that program. Those people in Bangladesh wanted a start, and they got it. We're well past that here in Canada - we've crossed the barrier of the extreme poverty of the third world, and our problems are completely different. Could micro-lending work here? Maybe. But the problems in Canada are completely different.

Good points made GB. However, it would be a mistake to assume everyone living in poverty in Canada is doing so because they choose to, or are just too lazy or are looking for hand-outs. It is far more complex than that (google conflict theory, or theories of disempowerment, for example) but I’m not going to engage in this tired old argument. I’m not putting this on you GB (I see you've done some research), but for a number of posters here blaming is just so much simpler than understanding. Being a victim solves nothing. Blaming solves nothing.

I think we are are saying the same thing Steve - I didn't mean to imply that people in Canada "choose" to be in poverty, what I was saying was that Canada and Bangladesh are not comparable, and pulling a story about Muhammed Yunis out of your butt to look intelligent about Canadian poverty is just plain stupid.

[The Green Barbarian]

I said "some guy" because I was pressed for time.".

No you didn't. You said "some guy" because you heard something somewhere and tried to make it applicable in this situation. You had no clue what country Yunis was from, or how his micro-loan program works, just that he "lends money at zero interest". Totally wrong. And not at all applicable to Canada in any way. Just like you do with many other issues - you take a tidbit of info and spin it and just end up looking ridiculous.

It certainly gave you a opportunity to sound informed though.

you should break with tradition and try it yourself sometime.

Considering the interest charges on 20 dollar micro loans amount to pennies - yes GB - *some* interest was charged. Its not a apple - its a red apple. *rolls eyes*.

*double rolls eyes* -

You still have no clue what you are talking about. $20 micro loans - that what you think Yunis does eh? Wow. And the interest rates he charges are actually quite high - but that's not really the point of the loan - it's not just about the money. When a lendee accepts the micro-loan, they sign a special pledge that doesn't just include repaying the loan, it involves an entire commitment to better themselves and their community. The person also doesn't receive the funding alone, but usually within a group of people who all support each other and serve as the enforcers to ensure the loan is paid back - if one person in the group defaults then they all are on the hook for it. This "micro-loan" program in the Yunis model would never work in Canada, as the terms the Bangladeshi people accept, willingly and gladly, would be considered "demeaning" in Canada and a "violation of human rights" by the "socially conscious" crusaders. The lib-lefties would destroy the program before it could ever get off the ground as the human rights complaints and the apologists would never let the terms be implemented. And thus we expose one of the problems with fighting poverty in this country - as others have already stated - any "accountability" introduced into the system is crushed as being too hard on "self esteem".

[steven lloyd]

And thus we expose one of the problems with fighting poverty in this country - as others have already stated - any "accountability" introduced into the system is crushed as being too hard on "self esteem".

I do not in any way want to suggest this is the only factor (again, we are talking about a very large and very diverse groups of individuals with very diverse backgrounds and circumstance), but it is ironic suggesting any "accountability" introduced into the system is crushed as being too hard on "self esteem’, when the system as it is set up and delivered right now is designed to crush “self-esteem”. Yes, we have heard all the stories of exception to this (see “availability heuristic”), but for the most part you’ll never meet a more discouraged, disempowered and hopeless group. The solutions, of course, are so simple: go to school, get a job, move somewhere there is work. Such a simple understanding of such a complex, multi-faceted issue.

We once had some outreach programs being delivered in this province that were breaking the cycle of intergenerational welfare dependence. We were working with chronically welfare dependent persons with multiple barriers to employment (homeless, addicted, illiterate, mentally-disordered) and using cognitive behavioural techniques to break them free from their “victim” mentality and support them to empowerment and independence. Our results showed immediate, short-term and long-term savings (after program delivery costs) to the tax payers of the province. What we were unable to measure was the contribution these previously dependent people were now making to their community. It was still pretty exciting stuff.

We were doing this in the late 1990’s but discontinued after the change of government. No matter what the numbers from our research said this type of intervention strategy didn’t match their ideology. The “kick em to the streets, that’ll motivate them to find work” was an easy sell to an electorate always looking for scapegoats. The new strategy, however; was a miserable failure that the government ultimately, and very quietly adjusted. The Outreach programs were never reintroduced though – despite their demonstrated and measurable success. They were the idea of the previous government.

Politics

[grammafreddy]

I agree with you, SL *faint*... it's a shame when you get something that works that the next government has to throw the baby out with the bath water. I've seen a number of good programs dodo bird because the power in Victoria changed.

[Queen K]

WELL!

The English Government not only gets it, that poverty costs more than fixing it, they are trying to fix it. With private money.

Try this innovative approach in British Columbia and see what happens. As it is, they are trying to see what happens.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14663564