How about a referendum on ICBC?

[Woodenhead]

The rates here are fine. I used to live where we had private insurance, and when I moved here and had to switch to ICBC, my rate went up by a whopping $4 a year. No issues here. (although I hate all the paperwork you have to carry - I miss having one simple little card)

[alisvolatpropriis]

It's not conflict of interest, if you really think about it, it's more fair and impartial. It's not pitting two parties whose vested interest is profit against eachother. now that's conflict of interest. More important it falls in line with what insurance should be, even protection for everyone.
Any surplus collected by ICBC is reinvested into the province (yes I know theres some bonuses to management and sometimes unsavoury conduct, no system is perfect) not shareholders pockets.

It's a corporation owned by us, not private enterprise.

Level the field, fund safe driver programs, education, protection for everyone.

Or

Make as much money as possible so shareholders Etc. get rich.



Which one do you want?

ICBC has slowly been taking away incentives for driver education. Perhaps they realize that jacking up a new driver's insurance 75% for a crash makes them more money.

75% is nothing in comparison to most private companies for young drivers with an at fault accident (and it's simple if you are an enexpirenced driver and you have an at fault accident you should pay more, you are costing everyone money), another thing to take into mind, private companies rate your insurance premium based on your sex (if you are a male you will pay more), how many motor vehicle contraventions (tickets and fines) you have had, if your license has ever been suspended, and if you have young drivers driving your vehicle. I have heard of young drivers that had a suspended license due to speeding tickets paying upwards $8000/yr

[alisvolatpropriis]

It's not conflict of interest, if you really think about it, it's more fair and impartial. It's not pitting two parties whose vested interest is profit against eachother. now that's conflict of interest. More important it falls in line with what insurance should be, even protection for everyone.
Any surplus collected by ICBC is reinvested into the province (yes I know theres some bonuses to management and sometimes unsavoury conduct, no system is perfect) not shareholders pockets.

It's a corporation owned by us, not private enterprise.

Level the field, fund safe driver programs, education, protection for everyone.

Or

Make as much money as possible so shareholders Etc. get rich.



Which one do you want?

I doubt very much that you have had the pleasure of dealing with ICBC adjusters while being the innocent victim of a MV accident. Every attempt is made to marginalize your injuries, ability to return to gainful employment, and market value of your vehicle. It is their vested interest and mandate to minimize claim payouts......not return you to a position that you were in prior to the accident.
Several years ago I purchased a very nice used vehicle for 13,500. Thirteen months later it was deemed a write off and not due to our fault. ICBC would only pay 8000 for it as their research found three vehicles with similar mileage and options advertized in the lower mainland as average comparatives. Do you seriously think my vehicle depreciated 5500 in 13 months? How was I supposed to go to the lower mainland to kick the actual tires and see if they were in fact in similar condition to mine without great personal inconvienience and expense? Their compromise after 2 weeks of argument? I was allowed to remove the brand new tires as long as I reinstalled tires that were at least 50% tread left and I was allowed to remove the trailer hitch I had installed as those items would not greatly effect the salvage value they could obtain for the vehicle selling it to a wrecker. As a further insult I had to pay the wrecking yard it was stored in to do the work because of insurance liabilities should I become injured while doing it myself. Yup, I really came out even.

Thats not your vehicle depreciating $5500, thats you having paid too much for the vehicle in the first place? If you had done your research before buying the vehicle you would have found exactly what they did. Why should the insurance company have to pay for someone's lack of attentiveness? Their job is to put you in the position you were in proir to your accident, which they did by providing you with the appropriate amount of money to go and replace your same year make model determined by market value. There should be no reason why they should pay more than that, its things like that, that would cause an insurance company to do rate increases for EVERYONE. Thats a loss to them. Lesson: Do your research before you buy another vehicle. :127:

[my5cents]

The rates here are fine. I used to live where we had private insurance, and when I moved here and had to switch to ICBC, my rate went up by a whopping $4 a year. No issues here. (although I hate all the paperwork you have to carry - I miss having one simple little card)

"I hate all the paperwork you have to carry" ?

In the other jurisdiction, didn't you have to carry a vehicle registration plus the "little card" ?

One piece of paper serves both here.

I realize your point was the ICBC's rate was basically the same, but I'd also bet the coverage you have with ICBC for the extra $4 is far greater as well.

[twobits]

Thats not your vehicle depreciating $5500, thats you having paid too much for the vehicle in the first place? If you had done your research before buying the vehicle you would have found exactly what they did. Why should the insurance company have to pay for someone's lack of attentiveness? Their job is to put you in the position you were in proir to your accident, which they did by providing you with the appropriate amount of money to go and replace your same year make model determined by market value. There should be no reason why they should pay more than that, its things like that, that would cause an insurance company to do rate increases for EVERYONE. Thats a loss to them. Lesson: Do your research before you buy another vehicle. :127:

Sorry but I am very car savy. Don't make assumptions. The problem here was that this was a limited edition in mint condition and comparatives were difficult. The dealer invoice should have had some bearing as to the value after only 13 months but the adjusters were not interested in the least. They could physically inspect my vehicle and see it was mint. All they produced was black and white photo's and brief adverts from the lower mainland. If I had followed the dispute/appeal process, I would have been lucky to have a replacment vehicle in two months.

[Oxl3y]

Thats not your vehicle depreciating $5500, thats you having paid too much for the vehicle in the first place? If you had done your research before buying the vehicle you would have found exactly what they did. Why should the insurance company have to pay for someone's lack of attentiveness? Their job is to put you in the position you were in proir to your accident, which they did by providing you with the appropriate amount of money to go and replace your same year make model determined by market value. There should be no reason why they should pay more than that, its things like that, that would cause an insurance company to do rate increases for EVERYONE. Thats a loss to them. Lesson: Do your research before you buy another vehicle. :127:

Sorry but I am very car savy. Don't make assumptions. The problem here was that this was a limited edition in mint condition and comparatives were difficult. The dealer invoice should have had some bearing as to the value after only 13 months but the adjusters were not interested in the least. They could physically inspect my vehicle and see it was mint. All they produced was black and white photo's and brief adverts from the lower mainland. If I had followed the dispute/appeal process, I would have been lucky to have a replacment vehicle in two months.

ICBC has a book value for used cars and they offered the cash to replace it with a car of similar make and model. Your car being "mint" is inconsequential unless I suppose you were going to get it appraised every year.

[twobits]

Thats not your vehicle depreciating $5500, thats you having paid too much for the vehicle in the first place? If you had done your research before buying the vehicle you would have found exactly what they did. Why should the insurance company have to pay for someone's lack of attentiveness? Their job is to put you in the position you were in proir to your accident, which they did by providing you with the appropriate amount of money to go and replace your same year make model determined by market value. There should be no reason why they should pay more than that, its things like that, that would cause an insurance company to do rate increases for EVERYONE. Thats a loss to them. Lesson: Do your research before you buy another vehicle. :127:

Sorry but I am very car savy. Don't make assumptions. The problem here was that this was a limited edition in mint condition and comparatives were difficult. The dealer invoice should have had some bearing as to the value after only 13 months but the adjusters were not interested in the least. They could physically inspect my vehicle and see it was mint. All they produced was black and white photo's and brief adverts from the lower mainland. If I had followed the dispute/appeal process, I would have been lucky to have a replacment vehicle in two months.

ICBC has a book value for used cars and they offered the cash to replace it with a car of similar make and model. Your car being "mint" is inconsequential unless I suppose you were going to get it appraised every year.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c ... e-car.html

A Vancouver woman says she going to have to pay thousands of dollars for her leased car that was burnt in the Stanley Cup riot.

Jazmin Perez says she parked her BMW outside the Bay store in downtown Vancouver on the evening of the Stanley Cup riot. By the time she finished shopping large crowds had gathered on the street.

Perez went to get some help to have her car removed from the area, but by the time she got back it had been destroyed by the rioters.

"My car was just burnt to silver metal," she told CBC News.

Perez had insurance on the leased car, but it covered only the market value and not the replacement cost. As a result she still owes thousands more on the lease than she got in insurance, she says.

Perez says the leasing company and ICBC can't do anything and she is now left to cover the loss.

"They say it's not their fault either. They feel for me, but at the same time, someone needs to pay for this and I signed the papers," she says.

Perez says she's taken a month off to deal with the stress of the situation.

"It's very frustrating, also very stressful, and overwhelming. I had to take time off work, to sort of take care of myself because of this incurred loss. I've been on this every day, I'm trying to seek some sort of help, whether through my MLA or through lawyers."

The riot erupted after the Vancouver Canucks lost the final game of the Stanley Cup playoffs to the Boston Bruins.

[alisvolatpropriis]

Thats not your vehicle depreciating $5500, thats you having paid too much for the vehicle in the first place? If you had done your research before buying the vehicle you would have found exactly what they did. Why should the insurance company have to pay for someone's lack of attentiveness? Their job is to put you in the position you were in proir to your accident, which they did by providing you with the appropriate amount of money to go and replace your same year make model determined by market value. There should be no reason why they should pay more than that, its things like that, that would cause an insurance company to do rate increases for EVERYONE. Thats a loss to them. Lesson: Do your research before you buy another vehicle. :127:

Sorry but I am very car savy. Don't make assumptions. The problem here was that this was a limited edition in mint condition and comparatives were difficult. The dealer invoice should have had some bearing as to the value after only 13 months but the adjusters were not interested in the least. They could physically inspect my vehicle and see it was mint. All they produced was black and white photo's and brief adverts from the lower mainland. If I had followed the dispute/appeal process, I would have been lucky to have a replacment vehicle in two months.

ICBC has a book value for used cars and they offered the cash to replace it with a car of similar make and model. Your car being "mint" is inconsequential unless I suppose you were going to get it appraised every year.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c ... e-car.html

A Vancouver woman says she going to have to pay thousands of dollars for her leased car that was burnt in the Stanley Cup riot.

Jazmin Perez says she parked her BMW outside the Bay store in downtown Vancouver on the evening of the Stanley Cup riot. By the time she finished shopping large crowds had gathered on the street.

Perez went to get some help to have her car removed from the area, but by the time she got back it had been destroyed by the rioters.

"My car was just burnt to silver metal," she told CBC News.

Perez had insurance on the leased car, but it covered only the market value and not the replacement cost. As a result she still owes thousands more on the lease than she got in insurance, she says.

Perez says the leasing company and ICBC can't do anything and she is now left to cover the loss.

"They say it's not their fault either. They feel for me, but at the same time, someone needs to pay for this and I signed the papers," she says.

Perez says she's taken a month off to deal with the stress of the situation.

"It's very frustrating, also very stressful, and overwhelming. I had to take time off work, to sort of take care of myself because of this incurred loss. I've been on this every day, I'm trying to seek some sort of help, whether through my MLA or through lawyers."

The riot erupted after the Vancouver Canucks lost the final game of the Stanley Cup playoffs to the Boston Bruins.

And that is exactly why ICBC and private companies offer replacement cost on new pruchases/leases, which is pushed by the dealerships AND insurance agents for this exact reason. As soon as you drive a vehicle off of the lot, it looses $4000-$8000 for depriciation regardless of condition of the vehicle. It was up to her discretion to place the replacement coverage on the vehicle, she obviously chose not to do so, so therefore it is now her problem. She has nobody to blame but herself. That is the problem with people these days, its always someone elses fault, they can never take responsibilty for their own actions.

[alisvolatpropriis]

Thats not your vehicle depreciating $5500, thats you having paid too much for the vehicle in the first place? If you had done your research before buying the vehicle you would have found exactly what they did. Why should the insurance company have to pay for someone's lack of attentiveness? Their job is to put you in the position you were in proir to your accident, which they did by providing you with the appropriate amount of money to go and replace your same year make model determined by market value. There should be no reason why they should pay more than that, its things like that, that would cause an insurance company to do rate increases for EVERYONE. Thats a loss to them. Lesson: Do your research before you buy another vehicle. :127:

Sorry but I am very car savy. Don't make assumptions. The problem here was that this was a limited edition in mint condition and comparatives were difficult. The dealer invoice should have had some bearing as to the value after only 13 months but the adjusters were not interested in the least. They could physically inspect my vehicle and see it was mint. All they produced was black and white photo's and brief adverts from the lower mainland. If I had followed the dispute/appeal process, I would have been lucky to have a replacment vehicle in two months.

The the book they use to determine actual cash value of the vehicle, has limited edition models in it, and whether the vehcile was in mint condition or not, that makes no difference. And if you purchased it from a dealer, they usually jack the price up to cover their costs and to be able to profit off of the sale of the vehicle, so chances are it wasn't worth $13500.

[twobits]

Thats not your vehicle depreciating $5500, thats you having paid too much for the vehicle in the first place? If you had done your research before buying the vehicle you would have found exactly what they did. Why should the insurance company have to pay for someone's lack of attentiveness? Their job is to put you in the position you were in proir to your accident, which they did by providing you with the appropriate amount of money to go and replace your same year make model determined by market value. There should be no reason why they should pay more than that, its things like that, that would cause an insurance company to do rate increases for EVERYONE. Thats a loss to them. Lesson: Do your research before you buy another vehicle. :127:

Sorry but I am very car savy. Don't make assumptions. The problem here was that this was a limited edition in mint condition and comparatives were difficult. The dealer invoice should have had some bearing as to the value after only 13 months but the adjusters were not interested in the least. They could physically inspect my vehicle and see it was mint. All they produced was black and white photo's and brief adverts from the lower mainland. If I had followed the dispute/appeal process, I would have been lucky to have a replacment vehicle in two months.

The the book they use to determine actual cash value of the vehicle, has limited edition models in it, and whether the vehcile was in mint condition or not, that makes no difference. And if you purchased it from a dealer, they usually jack the price up to cover their costs and to be able to profit off of the sale of the vehicle, so chances are it wasn't worth $13500.

You have not a clue. Of course the books have limited editions in them and yes, ICBC does take vehicle condition into acct....just not properly in some cases. I suppose we should all get appraisals of our vehicles every year to make sure we are not under insured huh?

[Woodenhead]

The rates here are fine. I used to live where we had private insurance, and when I moved here and had to switch to ICBC, my rate went up by a whopping $4 a year. No issues here. (although I hate all the paperwork you have to carry - I miss having one simple little card)

"I hate all the paperwork you have to carry" ?

In the other jurisdiction, didn't you have to carry a vehicle registration plus the "little card" ?

One piece of paper serves both here.

Not in my case, altho the paperwork decreased last time I renewed here.

I realize your point was the ICBC's rate was basically the same, but I'd also bet the coverage you have with ICBC for the extra $4 is far greater as well.

Nope - it's *exactly* the same, to be completely honest.

Experiences will vary, of course, but I file this one under "the grass is always greener..."

[alisvolatpropriis]

The rates here are fine. I used to live where we had private insurance, and when I moved here and had to switch to ICBC, my rate went up by a whopping $4 a year. No issues here. (although I hate all the paperwork you have to carry - I miss having one simple little card)

"I hate all the paperwork you have to carry" ?

In the other jurisdiction, didn't you have to carry a vehicle registration plus the "little card" ?

One piece of paper serves both here.

Not in my case, altho the paperwork decreased last time I renewed here.

I realize your point was the ICBC's rate was basically the same, but I'd also bet the coverage you have with ICBC for the extra $4 is far greater as well.

Nope - it's *exactly* the same, to be completely honest.

Experiences will vary, of course, but I file this one under "the grass is always greener..."

So your saying that under BASIC insurance, which is the bare mininum (everyone has this coverage if you have a vehicle insured automatically) you were given financial assistance to cover your wage loss and to help pay for your medical/rehabilitation cost (upto $150,000) for personal injuries? If any deaths are a result from an accident, ICBC will pay for funeral exspenses up to $2,500 and death benefits to the survivors. And it also provides you and members of your household and other occupants of your vehicle with $1,000,000 coverage in an accident where the at-fault motorist lacked sufficent insurance coverages, or where they could be found in breach of their insurance (ie. drinking and driving, driving without insurance/license..ect) I've heard that in a lot of other provinces, that insurance companies don't cover the same. :1422:

[Woodenhead]

You're assuming a lot of things from my little post there that have nothing to do with me or my personal experience. Your bias is showing.

[Dizzy1]

Several years ago I purchased a very nice used vehicle for 13,500. Thirteen months later it was deemed a write off and not due to our fault. ICBC would only pay 8000 for it as their research found three vehicles with similar mileage and options advertized in the lower mainland as average comparatives. Do you seriously think my vehicle depreciated 5500 in 13 months?

You most likely paid too much for the vehicle in the first place ... yes thats even possible with used cars. Its amazing how many people think that if one buys a used car they think there's no depreciation value yet its very possible to drive a used car off the lot and loose thousands of dollars right away.

Thats not your vehicle depreciating $5500, thats you having paid too much for the vehicle in the first place?

I agree, I have a feeling thats what happened.

Sorry but I am very car savy. Don't make assumptions. The problem here was that this was a limited edition in mint condition and comparatives were difficult. The dealer invoice should have had some bearing as to the value after only 13 months but the adjusters were not interested in the least. They could physically inspect my vehicle and see it was mint. All they produced was black and white photo's and brief adverts from the lower mainland. If I had followed the dispute/appeal process, I would have been lucky to have a replacment vehicle in two months.

If you are very car savy then you should know that there are 2 values, actually 4 values to every car on the road ...

1 - Retail value ... what a person should expect to sell or pay for a vehicle on the retail market.
2 - Wholesale value ... what a person should expect to sell/trade a vehicle at a dealership.
3 - Actual trade-in value ... what a person actually receives for a vehicle at a dealership.
4 - Actual value ... the price a seller and buyer finally agree on.

You most likely paid retail value for your vehicle at time of purchase (even possibly more than retail), when a car gets written off, you are offered wholesale value with any basic insurance (ICBC or private) unless you opt for more comphrensive insurance such as deprciation value. Now, I don't know what your car was so I'll just take a stab at it ... if the actual retail value was $13 500, the wholesale price at time of purchase would have been closer to $11 000 which would have easily lost another $2000 - $3000 in depreciation in 13 months, again, I don't know what car you had but some loose more than others, but that is a rough rule of thumb.

Your best strategy is to go in to see the adjuster with knowledge ... know what the various values of your car are, especially the wholesale value at the time of the accident not at the time you purchased the car. When shopping for a car, do your research and know what all the values are.

I bought a used car last year that I got for $8500, the wholesale value was just over $11000, retail just over $13000 ... fortunatly the car was mechanically sound and had a clean CarProof and in your case "mint" ... not a scratch on her, it was just a case of the vehicle not selling and being on the lot for a long period of time ... my advantage. Unfortunatly, a few months later it got totalled in an accident where I was 0% at fault, not even 2 weeks later I got a cheque from ICBC for just over $11000 which was still the wholesale value as the car did not age another calender year ... so I actually made a profit of $2500. On top of that, they also wrote me a cheque for the brand new winter tires I just put on her in exchange for the all seasons I took off, plus since it was not my fault (the accident) all my expenses (travel, lodging, food, etc.) that I had receipts for were reimbursed.

Since then, I took my time in finding another vehicle ... I knew what I was looking for but just waited to find the right price. I had my eye on one vehicle in particular that had a wholesale value of $9000 and a retail value of $11000 ... when I first saw it, it was listed at $12000, a month later it went down to $11000, a month later down to $10000 and once it hit $9500 I went in and bought it for $9100. If one were to look on-line right now or at the dealerships ... the exact same year/make/model/features/mileage vehicle is being advertised for anywhere between $13500 and $15500. If I were to have it written off tomorrow, I'd be getting $9000 wholesale, not $11000 retail, and definetly not $13500-$15500 dealer mark-up value.

ICBC has a book value for used cars and they offered the cash to replace it with a car of similar make and model. Your car being "mint" is inconsequential unless I suppose you were going to get it appraised every year.

Agreed. Any basic insurance doesn't care if the car is mint or not. One needs a more comprehensive insurance for that, and if a "mint" condition car is to play any significant role, it would be on a a vintage or collector car, where documentation is key and one had better have all the bells and whistles on their insurance policy.

You have not a clue. Of course the books have limited editions in them and yes, ICBC does take vehicle condition into acct....just not properly in some cases. I suppose we should all get appraisals of our vehicles every year to make sure we are not under insured huh?

No, ICBC nor most other insurance company do not take vehicle condition into consideration under basic coverage if it is considered a write-off except in some extreme cases where the car is a complete POS. Normal wear and tear such as scratches, stone chips, shopping cart dings are all ready calculated into blue book estimates ... cars with pieces missing or are completely sand blasted is another story of course.

[alisvolatpropriis]

Several years ago I purchased a very nice used vehicle for 13,500. Thirteen months later it was deemed a write off and not due to our fault. ICBC would only pay 8000 for it as their research found three vehicles with similar mileage and options advertized in the lower mainland as average comparatives. Do you seriously think my vehicle depreciated 5500 in 13 months?

You most likely paid too much for the vehicle in the first place ... yes thats even possible with used cars. Its amazing how many people think that if one buys a used car they think there's no depreciation value yet its very possible to drive a used car off the lot and loose thousands of dollars right away.

Thats not your vehicle depreciating $5500, thats you having paid too much for the vehicle in the first place?

I agree, I have a feeling thats what happened.

Sorry but I am very car savy. Don't make assumptions. The problem here was that this was a limited edition in mint condition and comparatives were difficult. The dealer invoice should have had some bearing as to the value after only 13 months but the adjusters were not interested in the least. They could physically inspect my vehicle and see it was mint. All they produced was black and white photo's and brief adverts from the lower mainland. If I had followed the dispute/appeal process, I would have been lucky to have a replacment vehicle in two months.

If you are very car savy then you should know that there are 2 values, actually 4 values to every car on the road ...

1 - Retail value ... what a person should expect to sell or pay for a vehicle on the retail market.
2 - Wholesale value ... what a person should expect to sell/trade a vehicle at a dealership.
3 - Actual trade-in value ... what a person actually receives for a vehicle at a dealership.
4 - Actual value ... the price a seller and buyer finally agree on.

You most likely paid retail value for your vehicle at time of purchase (even possibly more than retail), when a car gets written off, you are offered wholesale value with any basic insurance (ICBC or private) unless you opt for more comphrensive insurance such as deprciation value. Now, I don't know what your car was so I'll just take a stab at it ... if the actual retail value was $13 500, the wholesale price at time of purchase would have been closer to $11 000 which would have easily lost another $2000 - $3000 in depreciation in 13 months, again, I don't know what car you had but some loose more than others, but that is a rough rule of thumb.

Your best strategy is to go in to see the adjuster with knowledge ... know what the various values of your car are, especially the wholesale value at the time of the accident not at the time you purchased the car. When shopping for a car, do your research and know what all the values are.

I bought a used car last year that I got for $8500, the wholesale value was just over $11000, retail just over $13000 ... fortunatly the car was mechanically sound and had a clean CarProof and in your case "mint" ... not a scratch on her, it was just a case of the vehicle not selling and being on the lot for a long period of time ... my advantage. Unfortunatly, a few months later it got totalled in an accident where I was 0% at fault, not even 2 weeks later I got a cheque from ICBC for just over $11000 which was still the wholesale value as the car did not age another calender year ... so I actually made a profit of $2500. On top of that, they also wrote me a cheque for the brand new winter tires I just put on her in exchange for the all seasons I took off, plus since it was not my fault (the accident) all my expenses (travel, lodging, food, etc.) that I had receipts for were reimbursed.

Since then, I took my time in finding another vehicle ... I knew what I was looking for but just waited to find the right price. I had my eye on one vehicle in particular that had a wholesale value of $9000 and a retail value of $11000 ... when I first saw it, it was listed at $12000, a month later it went down to $11000, a month later down to $10000 and once it hit $9500 I went in and bought it for $9100. If one were to look on-line right now or at the dealerships ... the exact same year/make/model/features/mileage vehicle is being advertised for anywhere between $13500 and $15500. If I were to have it written off tomorrow, I'd be getting $9000 wholesale, not $11000 retail, and definetly not $13500-$15500 dealer mark-up value.

ICBC has a book value for used cars and they offered the cash to replace it with a car of similar make and model. Your car being "mint" is inconsequential unless I suppose you were going to get it appraised every year.

Agreed. Any basic insurance doesn't care if the car is mint or not. One needs a more comprehensive insurance for that, and if a "mint" condition car is to play any significant role, it would be on a a vintage or collector car, where documentation is key and one had better have all the bells and whistles on their insurance policy.

You have not a clue. Of course the books have limited editions in them and yes, ICBC does take vehicle condition into acct....just not properly in some cases. I suppose we should all get appraisals of our vehicles every year to make sure we are not under insured huh?

No, ICBC nor most other insurance company do not take vehicle condition into consideration under basic coverage if it is considered a write-off except in some extreme cases where the car is a complete POS. Normal wear and tear such as scratches, stone chips, shopping cart dings are all ready calculated into blue book estimates ... cars with pieces missing or are completely sand blasted is another story of course.

Thank you! :127: