ICBC

[workthatwedo]

I had clearly stated that the scenario I was outlining started with me having -43% (20). Sure it would be different if I had just obtained the -43%. It is spelled out quite clearly in the claims rated scale. ICBC does a pretty good job of protecting rates of their best customers.

You really think so do you? Under the current system you get one "free" claim for your 20 year safe driving record. The next accident will cost you your 43% discount and every accident after that will add a surcharge.

I showed you how and why you were wrong in stating this. I'm not going to argue with a clown.

As far as your quote from the brochure, the exact amount of your premiums depend on more than just your discount. It does not state that your exact discount (-5%--43%) can't be determined. That part is very straight forward if you know where you are currently at. Your premium is based on your discount, what type of vehicle you have, your deductibles and the type of coverage you choose etc.

[cv23]

Where does your "official document" state what the difference is between a -20 and a -9 ??? They both receive a43% discount don't they?.
You said if you were a 43% discount and made 3 at fault claims you'd still be getting a 5% discount. I showed you that you may indeed be at a 43% discount but make 3 at fault claims and be required to pay a 75% premium.

Are you really dilusional enough to think that someone who has 3 at fault claims in a single year should be considered a "good customer" by their insurance company? By a body shop yes, but definitely not by an insurance company.

[workthatwedo]

In the document, the left column is your CRS level. The center is the discount/surcharge, and in the right column it says, "Chargeable Claims? Move up:"? It then shows you two examples of how it works. I start at (20) as that is my years of safe driving. It is really quite simple.

Starting with:
20 one chargeable claim move 3 steps to -> (-43%)
17 one chargeable claim move 3 steps to -> (-43%)
14 one chargeable claim move 4 steps to -> (-43%) yep still full discount
10 one chargeable claim move 4 steps to -> (-30%) now it starts to hurt
6 one chargeable claim move 5 steps to -> (-5%)

So, if you have a safe driving record... you are fairly well protected. If you are starting out at ground zero and have a couple accidents you are going to be paying through the nose for your policy (as it should be). Good drivers, like myself, don't get punished for just one or two accidents, they seem to remember the 20 claim free years I gave them prior to.

[zensiert]

IMHO ICBC does make driving a bit more expensive for the "ideal claim-free driver" in favour of the more risky first-time/young driver, but that is the trade-off of having a system that does try to push costs down all the time. If I had to live in a "free market" system when I first started driving, I wouldn't have driven until I was at least 25-30 years old, simply because it would have cost me too much to insure as a young person than under ICBC. It is worst for young males, who sometimes have to pay up to $5,000 or more per year just to drive in a "free market" system. And that is BEFORE they get into any accidents. How many young people living on their own can afford $5,000 per year just for vehicle insurance? No-one I know, or knew (at that age), that's for sure.

About the only complaint I have with ICBC is in relation to that "always lowering costs" benefit I previously mentioned - they also apply it to when a car is written off. Which I think is wrong. Their offer, even when you are 0% at fault, is often well beneath market value for a replacement vehicle. In my case, it was almost half of what a comparable replacement would have cost. That was the only thing I would ever "fix" with ICBC, because people who are not at fault for an accident deserve to have things made as equitable as possible... offering the lowest possible dollar for the loss of their vehicle is a great way to make a bad situation even worse.

[cv23]

I start at (20) as that is my years of safe driving. It is really quite simple.

Please show where it says 20 years of safe driving means your CRS level is -20?

[cv23]

IMHO ICBC does make driving a bit more expensive for the "ideal claim-free driver" in favour of the more risky first-time/young driver, but that is the trade-off of having a system that does try to push costs down all the time. If I had to live in a "free market" system when I first started driving, I wouldn't have driven until I was at least 25-30 years old, simply because it would have cost me too much to insure as a young person than under ICBC. It is worst for young males, who sometimes have to pay up to $5,000 or more per year just to drive in a "free market" system. And that is BEFORE they get into any accidents. How many young people living on their own can afford $5,000 per year just for vehicle insurance? No-one I know, or knew (at that age), that's for sure.
Insurance is a all about risk. The higher the risk the higher the premium.
Why do yo think free market insurers charge new/inexperienced drivers so much? Years and years of statistics show that new/inexperienced driver are a very high risk to make a claim. Those stats are supplied to the entire industry in BC by ICBC and are the same high rate here as every where else. When these drivers make the claims that they inevitably do who pays for the repairs? Not the new/inexperienced drivers who were not charged a premium relative to the risk, nope its the good drivers with no claims that are the ones charged extra to make up for these inevitable and totally predictable claims. Why does ICBC ignore not only it's own data but also that of the entire auto industry and undercharge new drivers and expect the good drivers to pay more than they should simply to pay for someone elses accident?

About the only complaint I have with ICBC is in relation to that "always lowering costs" benefit I previously mentioned - they also apply it to when a car is written off. Which I think is wrong. Their offer, even when you are 0% at fault, is often well beneath market value for a replacement vehicle. In my case, it was almost half of what a comparable replacement would have cost. That was the only thing I would ever "fix" with ICBC, because people who are not at fault for an accident deserve to have things made as equitable as possible... offering the lowest possible dollar for the loss of their vehicle is a great way to make a bad situation even worse.
You think ICBC is bad for offering fair vehicle values you should see them in action regarding injuries. For some reason they like to try and cheat their clients rather than treat them fairly. My ex was offered $15k and free massage therapy by ICBC for what was diagnosed as a permanent brain injury. The minute a lawyer was threatened the offer went to $50k and right before trial ICBC agreed to $280k and all medical expenses. You think its bad to try and cheat someone out of the value of their vehicle how about the value of their health?????

[ticat900]

Why get rid of ICBC?
It would make more sense to just get rid of their monopoly. Let/make ICBC compete in an open market.
If ICBC is indeed so great and so cheap, as some of you believe, then there is no way private companies will be able to compete or even get a foot hold in the province. If ICBC is not so great or so cheap then they will lose customers and eventually be forced to cease operations.
Until there is open market competition no one can say if public or private insurance is better.

I agree.Let the open market begin.ICBC has millions upon millions invested in infrastructures.I say let ICBC compete against the private insurers the same as all other industrys do. I feel ICBC has really stepped up to the plate in the last few years by allowing Body shops to do estimations without having have to go to a claim center.Those arrogant overpaid lazy dumb A$$
UNION icbc claims worker will drive u nuts with their arrogance and indifference but not the private estimaters.They bend over backwards to help you through a claim and repair process

[hobbyguy]

Daft idea to get rid of ICBC.

Although somewhat out of date, Consumer's Association of Canada reports clearly show that "open market" provinces pay a lot more. B.C., Sask, Man. and Quebec have the lowest rates via government controlled insurance. Even for an old guy like me with no accidents.

I'm sure some more careful research would confirm this as current fact.

ICBC's claim centers have always been easy to deal with and repair shops have some oversight, so you can be reasonably confident that you will be looked after for day-to-day claims. Try dealing with some of these private outfits, it can be awful. I made the mistake of insuring my trailer with Aviva - no fun.

[workthatwedo]

Please show where it says 20 years of safe driving means your CRS level is -20?

http://www.icbc.com/autoplan/costs/claim-record/CRS

Discounts

For each year that you do not make an at-fault claim, you move down the claim-rated scale. Once you are at level -1, you start to receive a 5 per cent discount on your premium. Every claim-free year after this increases this discount by 5 per cent until you reach 43 per cent.

Just in case that doesn't spell it out clearly enough for you, allow me to elaborate. When you purchase your first ever policy you start at zero. One year of safe driving puts you at (1) -5% discount. Another year of safe driving will bring you to (2) -10% discount. A third year of safe driving will put you at (3) -15% discount. I hope you are seeing the trend here.

I am really quite astonished at how you can have such a hard time grasping such a simple concept. Your initial post shows your lack of knowledge on this subject matter. I find it amusing how you question me at every angle, yet have no clue yourself. I am not here to educate you. Everything you need to know is right there on that screen in front of your face. Go to icbc.com and use the search function.

[workthatwedo]

I agree.Let the open market begin.ICBC has millions upon millions invested in infrastructures.I say let ICBC compete against the private insurers the same as all other industrys do. I feel ICBC has really stepped up to the plate in the last few years by allowing Body shops to do estimations without having have to go to a claim center.Those arrogant overpaid lazy dumb A$$
UNION icbc claims worker will drive u nuts with their arrogance and indifference but not the private estimaters.They bend over backwards to help you through a claim and repair process

ICBC has been offering express repair for over 10 years. I know this as I was working at a shop that obtained the appropriate status back in 1999. From personal experience, I saw allot more people have a claim with their private insurer and then promptly switch back to ICBC than the other way around (based on what the customers would tell me anyway).

Private estimators? The private companies don't have estimators. They generally will have the shop complete the estimate and submit photos for approval. If they don't like something they may send out an independent estimator. The last I checked, there was only one guy (A&B Estimating) servicing the southern interior. Meanwhile your vehicle sits until they insurer gives the go ahead. I've seen this take up to two weeks before we could start working on the car.

When I was writing estimates in the shop, ICBC had to give us approval within 2 hours of submitting the estimate. We eventually got to a point where we had gained enough trust that ICBC gave us what they called 'earned authority', meaning any claim under $1500.00 was automatically approved once submitted.

It sounds like you may have had a bad experience or something, but from the 1000's of claims I have dealt with I can assure you that what you are stating is not typically the norm.

[cv23]

Until there is open competition in a free market no one can say for sure what premiums for individual drivers will do. Rates for the majority could increase just as easily as they could decrease but as long as ICBC has a monopoly we'll never know if we are getting screwed or getting a deal.
If ICBC is indeed the best route for BC drivers then ICBC has nothing to fear by competing for business in an open market so why do they need to have their present monopoly? End the monopoly and let ICBC prove once and for all to everyone that government run insurance is better.

[my5cents]

Until there is open competition in a free market no one can say for sure what premiums for individual drivers will do. Rates for the majority could increase just as easily as they could decrease but as long as ICBC has a monopoly we'll never know if we are getting screwed or getting a deal.
If ICBC is indeed the best route for BC drivers then ICBC has nothing to fear by competing for business in an open market so why do they need to have their present monopoly? End the monopoly and let ICBC prove once and for all to everyone that government run insurance is better.

OK, so we open up the basic $200,000 P L & P D (Public Liability and Property Damage) to "open competition".

"Rates for the majority could increase just as easily as they could decrease but as long as ICBC has a monopoly we'll never know if we are getting screwed or getting a deal."

Lets say we find out that it results in the average premium going up. What do we do now ? Change it back ?

Or do we look at all the stats for jurisdictions across Canada and see that our premiums are on average pretty low. Don't forget we have the mountains, the winding roads,,, not like Alberta.

I'm not even sure private insurance want to get into "first dollar".

What you are seeing in some jurisdictions like Alberta, is private insurance lobbying for no fault. ie, no money for pain and suffering, just wage loss and medical plus rehab. That's the private insurance industry's answer to low insurance rates.

To those who say ICBC screws claimants on the value they place on total losses. They base it on a cross section of local sales of vehicles of the same make, model, equipment, mileage etc, the value is generated from a database of recent vehicle sales.

If you don't like the value they place on your vehicle, for starters you can negotiate with the person dealing with your total loss then you can request an internal appeal process and if that doesn't satisfy, there is always the courts. How much more can they do ?

I've never met anyone who placed a realistic value on their own property, it's just human nature.

Now as far as private goes, oh,,, I'm sure the sky is the limit when it comes to paying claims, they are and would be very generous, paying the very top dollar. Ya, right.

I recall private. Got hit by a guy backing out of a stall. I went around to three body shops getting estimates. The lowest estimate was, lets say $1500. The private adjuster tells me to drop by his office for a cheque. I look at the cheque, it's for $1200, I ask what's up and he says, "that's what you are getting, if you don't like it there's always court".

To those who say we need competition and then go on to say that ICBC screwed or tried to screw them on a bodily injury claims. Now who do you think you will have to go to if the car that's at fault is insured by ICBC, even if you are insured by a private company. That's right ICBC. The company you buy your insurance from insures your vehicle for comprehensive losses and damage you cause to your own vehicle and indemnifies you to other motorists if you hit them.

You don't claim bodily injury from your own company, that gets paid by the other driver's (if they are at fault) insurance company.

At this point in time, ICBC sells basic liability to all comers, no exceptions. The a very few, who they have caught trying to defraud them, or have phenomenal claims histories (just a hand full) still get to buy basic liability but not own damage.

Private pick and choose each and every customer. A 10 or 15 year claims free history is nothing to them. They want the cream. The won't insure certain vehicles and certainly not anyone that is a new driver driving a sporty vehicle.

Even with all that, the average middle aged person who has a reasonable driving history, but not a gold plated one, won't same much at all with private insurance.

What's that tell you about their premiums ?

[friedemann]

Oh! So you are interested in paying more for your insurance ? Friend of mine had a nice new Camareo. She was proud of her new car. Insurance coverage hurt as they ask what make of car, etc. She has never had a speeding ticket or other infraction but they nailed her hard because of the car type. We have been there and that is exactly what the privates do, and then pay minimal insurance(and try to squiggle out of paying that).
They keep on building new buildings (even I scratch my head on that)
My friend came to B.C. and her rate was immediately reduced to about 2/3rds the cost compared to Calgary. That is full coverage package.
If you want to go private, go to Calgary. Privates also take safe drivers over those with multiple infractions, and claims.

[cv23]

OK, so we open up the basic $200,000 P L & P D (Public Liability and Property Damage) to "open competition".

"Rates for the majority could increase just as easily as they could decrease but as long as ICBC has a monopoly we'll never know if we are getting screwed or getting a deal."

Lets say we find out that it results in the average premium going up. What do we do now ? Change it back ?

Or do we look at all the stats for jurisdictions across Canada and see that our premiums are on average pretty low. Don't forget we have the mountains, the winding roads,,, not like Alberta.

I'm not even sure private insurance want to get into "first dollar".

What you are seeing in some jurisdictions like Alberta, is private insurance lobbying for no fault. ie, no money for pain and suffering, just wage loss and medical plus rehab. That's the private insurance industry's answer to low insurance rates.

To those who say ICBC screws claimants on the value they place on total losses. They base it on a cross section of local sales of vehicles of the same make, model, equipment, mileage etc, the value is generated from a database of recent vehicle sales.

If you don't like the value they place on your vehicle, for starters you can negotiate with the person dealing with your total loss then you can request an internal appeal process and if that doesn't satisfy, there is always the courts. How much more can they do ?

I've never met anyone who placed a realistic value on their own property, it's just human nature.

Now as far as private goes, oh,,, I'm sure the sky is the limit when it comes to paying claims, they are and would be very generous, paying the very top dollar. Ya, right.

I recall private. Got hit by a guy backing out of a stall. I went around to three body shops getting estimates. The lowest estimate was, lets say $1500. The private adjuster tells me to drop by his office for a cheque. I look at the cheque, it's for $1200, I ask what's up and he says, "that's what you are getting, if you don't like it there's always court".

To those who say we need competition and then go on to say that ICBC screwed or tried to screw them on a bodily injury claims. Now who do you think you will have to go to if the car that's at fault is insured by ICBC, even if you are insured by a private company. That's right ICBC. The company you buy your insurance from insures your vehicle for comprehensive losses and damage you cause to your own vehicle and indemnifies you to other motorists if you hit them.

You don't claim bodily injury from your own company, that gets paid by the other driver's (if they are at fault) insurance company.

At this point in time, ICBC sells basic liability to all comers, no exceptions. The a very few, who they have caught trying to defraud them, or have phenomenal claims histories (just a hand full) still get to buy basic liability but not own damage.

Private pick and choose each and every customer. A 10 or 15 year claims free history is nothing to them. They want the cream. The won't insure certain vehicles and certainly not anyone that is a new driver driving a sporty vehicle.

Even with all that, the average middle aged person who has a reasonable driving history, but not a gold plated one, won't same much at all with private insurance.

What's that tell you about their premiums ?

As an ICBC employee no one really expects you to understand the concept of a free market or open competition for customers. Clearly even the thought of having to compete for business scares the hell out of you and every other ICBC employee. Why?
Why is their an open market for home insurance? If government run insurance is indeed the best way to go amd offers consumers the best rates why doesn't the government monopolize this form of insurance too? Why doesn't the government monopolize food sales so every one can get the best quality food at prices everyone can afford? Because government monopolies are the fundamental basis for socialist and communist states not the free enterprise capitalist society we live in and enjoy.
I'm not advocating to shut ICBC down. ICBC would still be there as an option to anyone who wanted to do business with them. ICBC could still follow their mandate to sell insurance to everyone and do so at whatever rate they choose. If as you predict private insurance rates would be higher than ICBC's then obviously ICBC would get all the customers they could handle wouldn't they? If customers find that dealing with a private company is tougher, more expensive, more inconvenient or that the private insurer won't offer them coverage then they just remain or return to being ICBC customers.
What is wrong with open competition for business and why does ICBC fear it so much?

[cv23]

Oh! So you are interested in paying more for your insurance ? Friend of mine had a nice new Camareo. She was proud of her new car. Insurance coverage hurt as they ask what make of car, etc. She has never had a speeding ticket or other infraction but they nailed her hard because of the car type. We have been there and that is exactly what the privates do, and then pay minimal insurance(and try to squiggle out of paying that).
They keep on building new buildings (even I scratch my head on that)
My friend came to B.C. and her rate was immediately reduced to about 2/3rds the cost compared to Calgary. That is full coverage package.
If you want to go private, go to Calgary. Privates also take safe drivers over those with multiple infractions, and claims.

Who forced your friend to buy the "Camareo" that you say has such high insurance premiums in Alberta or did she make that conscious decision herself? Did she even ask about the insurance rates before purchasing her "Camareo"?

If ICBC does indeed offer the best coverage at the lowest rates then they have nothing at all to fear from ending their monopoly and going head to head for business with private companies do they? No one would buy their insurance from a private company because they would be paying more for inferior coverage compared to what they could purchase from ICBC and everyone would see just how good ICBC really is. But we can't compare because ICBC is scared to compete. What is ICBC afraid of?